Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Zaresin

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Good luck morello...I think you're gonna need it....think you have a headache ahead of you even worse than the one you have now.


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Kronuk

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I do believe this to be a touchy subject, seeing as these changes completely redefine bottom lane as a whole. I think I agree with providing more utility aspect of the role, but in the current state of yoloq that isn't the case.

Mages dominate bottom lane right now and there is no way around it, but in competitive play more utility can be used to an advantage. I think people just aren't correctly accounting for the extremely high level of play, but some do provide a good argument.

I think we will have to wait and see how gross some of the support mages can be with gold which will cause a problem because they aren't meant to be traditional supports so nerfing them will screw over their other roles. I do believe people also aren't looking at the new support items and how they will still need to be built on mage supports. It seems like everybody is thinking they can just rush death cap or straight damage and flourish, but that isn't the case.

All in all, this is going to be interesting to say the least and there is a lot of room for adjustments to be made once its live.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
3 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustofoblivion View Post
Personally, I don't understand why you're changing supports. I think they're fine in their current state. Yes, mage-like supports are strong, but so are the traditional supports like Thresh, Janna, Soraka, etc. Most people who say traditional support champions can't carry are dumb Silver players who have no understanding of bot laning in the first place. Support is a high skill role, but most traditional supports have game-changing abilities that WILL win games if used right. There's a reason some people are Diamond 1 and Challenger playing support alone.

I think, ultimately, whether you play traditional supports or mage-like ones is just a preference.
It's because that role is interesting to very competitive players because it shows skill, but that's a narrow focus. This isn't to fix balance - it's to fix the problem that supports have to be everyone's ***** to be successful.

How can Sona have a 56% win rate and feel bad? Or Janna a 55% and nerfs are met with religious fervor saved for weak characters? How can we see pro games where the best support player has a pair of boots and expect that to be satisfying?

That's the problem we're looking to solve here.


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Deathnor

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
My point to this is that it's a tuning problem. We see characters who have utility and low damage (tanks) picked over characters who have some utility and more damage (Fighters) in the jungle when both are available. There's likely balance things to fix here (the Orianna and Anivia callouts are an example) where this runs risk, or that the new support scaling get significantly more utility.
you keep saying its a tuning problem on the mage side.

that i understand. so why is their 0 mage utility addressed in such a patch would be my question?


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Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Janna is my favorite champion in the game, and I've played around 700 ranked games with her this season. I actually feel like Janna is incredibly balanced in the support role and mid role in her current state, and I don't agree with the PBE changes being a buff to her overall. If anything, she's breaking even in the support role.

First off, she won't be viable mid anymore imo, as they've pigeon-holed her into the support/adc lane. I think her support value will still be "OK" but people are vastly over-estimating how much her shield is going to help her through the game.

Everyone keeps posting pics of her giving like 150 AD, but that's with 1000+ AP. I'm sorry, but support Janna realistically is never going to get that much AP in a typical game, and it will normally be under 100 AD. Janna's overall power is being shifted in a way that I don't agree with.

Here's the math behind it - Best case scenario, Janna is going to get like 500 AP in a typical game, and maybe 200 or so in a game not going well.

With 500 AP at a .1 scaling ratio, that's ~100 total AD on her shield (50 base + 50 from the ratio).

With 200 AP at a .1 scaling ratio, that's ~70 total AD with her shield (50 base + 20 from the ratio).

These are also all late game values. Early game and mid game, the shield buffs will be pretty much unnoticeable.

Her ratio nerfs are not worth the buff she's getting in this regard - She's losing a huge amount of damage from her Q and W in place of buffing her ADC more. This is making her entirely dependent on her ADC being well to do and competent, while also forcing her to stay with her ADC the entire game. Before, Janna had potential to split push and do other interesting strategies even in a solo lane. She's being made very one-dimensional in this regard.

Why pick Janna when you can pick a support like Zyra or Annie who can CC hard AND deal a great amount of damage at every stage of the game? I can't speak as much for the other supports, but from what I've played around with on the PBE, Janna and other traditional supports are actually in a very bad place in comparison to them.

If you're intent on nerfing Janna's AP, then keep the .5 ratio on W (which has been nerfed all the way down from the .8 it was a long time ago) and keep the base .35 flat ratio on Q. In exchange, increase the scaling on Q to .15 per second. This gives Janna incentive to actually charge the tornado and make plays with it and do a decent amount of damage if it actually hits. Also revert the changes that decreased the damage the charged tornado did over time - this is again counter productive to her actually charging the tornado and making interesting plays with it. The slowest moving projectile in the game SHOULD do a fair amount of damage, especially given the fact you can actually see it charging before it slowly moves toward you.


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ChairJockey

Member

11-21-2013

they just need to turn all supports champs into utility mages, solves the issues of utility mages displacing them, and allows them to go other places again

*edit*
while were on the note of supports, please let leona's passive self trigger on minions and neutral monsters... or at least neutral monsters... oh and lets its damage match that of lux's who basically has a better version of the passive


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
4 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xemeron View Post
You better prepare for downvotes from people who didnt even read you text.
Here, have one Upvote to give you a little head start
That's fine - I'm not looking to win any awards here, I just want people to understand why, and why tradeoffs are important to look at when making systemic changes.


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AvidMind

Recruiter

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
My point to this is that it's a tuning problem. We see characters who have utility and low damage (tanks) picked over characters who have some utility and more damage (Fighters) in the jungle when both are available. There's likely balance things to fix here (the Orianna and Anivia callouts are an example) where this runs risk, or that the new support scaling get significantly more utility.
im not too imaginative with number ratios being put into play so i will wait till the patch goes through. but since people are QQing about the damage, and you are saying utility replaces damage, you should up the utility ratio before patch goes through. just food for thought


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Samus ARAM

Junior Member

11-21-2013

You tell us you are giving us better supports and "making them scale", but you are nerfing their base ratios AND bases so they just end up scaling back to what they were in the first place with zero gold!

Damage is a form of support, too. Nothing says "crowd control" like "Oh god I have 20% HP time to back off". You can't move your character when you're dead and you're less likely to try to make plays when you're almost dead.

What I don't understand is why are you NOT touching utility mages? Zyra's total lockdown time is almost as high if not HIGHER than any support and she also can deal very safe, very high burst damage. I'd agree with the support changes if utility mages couldn't do what supports do AND damage on top of it. The little tweaks to utility abilities scaling are nice, but they're not nearly enough to make up for the huge chunks of damage you're lopping off.

I am also wary of what these changes will do to supports in Dominion.


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Purodyuusaa

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
snip
Like I said before, and I'm sure a lot of players share the same sentiment, is that most of us have yet to experience the changes first-hand and will most likely hold judgement until we do. Conveniently that's in a few more hours.


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