Bye Bye Supports

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Axium

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Either way, not much we can do about it now. The patch rolls out in a few hours.

On the bright side, at least Fiddle support is fun to play.


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NegaStoat

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

Elise is simply going to rip it up as a Support when Annie / Fiddle get banned.

Just wait and see.


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Axium

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NegaStoat View Post
Elise is simply going to rip it up as a Support when Annie / Fiddle get banned.

Just wait and see.
I don't think so, actually. Elise's burst requires her target to have high HP, which I'm sure you're aware that ADCs don't have much of that. You'll want to play an AP mage that can burst hard regardless of their target's HP. One that can nearly insta-gib squishies if they land their CC. Add to that, the damage of an ADC, and you've got an easy kill.

Bot lane is going to be hell for the first weeks of the pre-season... Ganking bot as a jungler is going to be suicide.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NegaStoat View Post
Elise is simply going to rip it up as a Support when Annie / Fiddle get banned.

Just wait and see.
Too bad Elise is already on permaban status for her top / jungle.


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Mirror

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It is now. Solo support no longer is an overtuned mage.
Most blithely hypocritical post of the thread.


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matrinox

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurosurgeonwolf View Post
Can't take criticism?

This patch is smashing the single most avoided and hated role in LOL. Absolutely hindering it and making it even LESS appealing- and that was barely possible.

This is ridiculous!
Then watch as supports are stronger. Or not. You haven't even played the patch yet and you're already making definitive statements. Might have to eat your words..


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Axium

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
Most blithely hypocritical post of the thread.
Meh, what would you do if it was just brought to your attention that pretty much all of your work for the past 3+ weeks had more holes in it than Swiss cheese?


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SSLRranma

Senior Member

11-21-2013

i think my main problem isn't so much how hard they nerfed support, bu how hard they nerfed them so quickly. Riot releases patches so fast, and change so much, so often that they tend to have to go back anyway and undo. I would have felt better is they gradually lowered all this stuff instead of one big chunk.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
19 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
I swear, you live to troll supports. Your messaging on supports has never not been "we love to nerf supports", even when that's not really what you're doing.

I think this is a good design direction, but you're going to have to find more impactful utility scaling knobs to turn than Lulu Q, Leona W, and Nami E.

I'm not really sold on the idea that supports need damage nerfs to acquire utility buffs. Supports already generally had weak scaling, and adding gold to the support role means that the gap between supports and better scaling classes is automatically widening.
I think some of this is that there ARE mages who have too high of a combination of damage and utility. I don't think it's incredibly important that characters like Orianna and Anivia need damage that is as high as many peers and game-changing utility. Maybe there's a chicken-and-egg thing here that's really frustrating - I can understand that.

The irony about this is that this is all intended to help support characters, specifically. The concerns and thoughts we have;

1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports. Again, we'll be aggressive here. Maybe some other characters have too much (I tend to think so), maybe some mages go bottom too. Remember support gold is not equal to solo lane/farm gold, it's just quite a bit more than "none."

2) Support players have felt like their impact matters less, they have an imbalance of responsibility/rewards/success metrics. We think giving them access to the power growth tools (and not making them do "kill you" things to get it) is a big win for this.

3) We want to define supports as helpers and team-players first. This is pretty tough when you have 4 years of them being defined as ward bots with no gold. Tanks differ than fighters and have lower damage - edge cases like J4 do exist here too. Sona might just be a mage labelled as a support (as her power contribution is lane damage/late game CC) - if so, we'll have to modify her to a damage-oriented scaling model or something. That is tunable, and this is not the last patch ever ever ever.

4) To make big changes like this is disruptive by its nature. Balance will be temporarily off. Expectations that we've had for characters will change. What will almost never result from fixing game problems is "we just gave you free power/buffs!" Those aren't good solutions to what are systemic problems, but I feel that the expectation is that somehow (that applies to reworks and stuff, too).

This will be rough on launch - please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support. Report your experience. We've cleared out our days to marathon a bit for less useful anecdotal evidence from our experiences. See what snaps that internal tests and a limited player pool can't catch.

I think this disruption and uncertainty of the correctness of the details is more than worth the ability to bring supports into being first-class citizens with a unique identity. It's long overdue and is a pain that's existed for a long time. Just because something being in a bad state is known and comfortable doesn't mean it's better than taking it somewhere better that is a bit frightening and unknown to people.


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xProR2D2x

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages?
Actually, Yes.
I think that's the only way for them to see competitive play, to stop being 'only' supports.
Moreover, they will see even more non-competitive play as well because the truth is, almost no one enjoys playing with a champion that relies so much in its teammates to do damage, specially in Solo-que where all your teammates are strangers.
Annie and Fiddle are played bot not only because of their CC, but also because of their contribution with damage.

TL;DR Supports should be what they always should have been: A SUBCLASS, not a class. Or in an RPG logic: a secondary profession. Trinkets is a clear example of a step foward pointing to this direction, classifying 'support vision' as a subclass where everyone contributes, instead of only one person. The same should happen to the support tag in general. Turning 'support champions' (not tanks) into mages is the right path and I think it shouldn't be a problem, considering every role has champions with utility, and mages have been invalidating supports for a very long time. Just my 2cents.

If you doubt support mains will be sad, ask yourself why would a support main feel uncomfortable playing with a mage champion like Orianna, if it does high damage and has the same utility of a support as well? As I said, support should be a subclass, where everyone can contribute in a small degree, just like in every competitive game and S4 vision.
(reposted due to edits c: )