Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If this is the problem, we can increase support utility ratios - and if that is really not good, we will. It's a real risk, but the difference is this is a temporal issue, just like League of X was in preseason last year. That's the time to do this stuff, get the data/feedback, and get it in tuning for 2014. If I seem like I'm not worried, it's because the path forward is clear in any case - the whole preseason plan is predicated on tuning being imperfect and us being on-deck to fix it.
I think the thing is, we would've expected that sort of balancing paradigm to start by just adding utility scaling and then nerfing their damage after the patch so you'd know whether their damage needed a nerf and by how much. Nerfing their numbers out of the gate seems like jumping the gun, like it's gonna lead to whack-a-mole balancing. I also really, really hope you guys don't react to the further proliferation of utility mages in the support role by nerfing utility mages (many of whom aren't especially great mid at the moment anyway).

That said, it's good to have it reiterated that you guys are gonna watch it carefully. We're just trying to keep your feet to the fire. ^_^


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IonCannonKarthus

Senior Member

11-20-2013

We are complaining about a balance team that wants to remove harmless summoner spells for no reason other than to force them to not be taken, do you really expect us take what you guys decide seriously anymore? We've seen entire play styles massacred, champions gutted and then buffed to high heavens via knee jerk reactions. If this is still preseason as you say, then why couldn't you have left the supports alone and gone through with the rest of the changes so the community can see for itself how things were?

Preemptively nerfing things has NEVER ended well for League, it just leaves us distrusting the decisions of your team more and more. So I ask you, why couldn't the support changes wait until the patch after this? This IS preseason after all.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skaarrjj

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

3) Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact).
The reverse should apply to anyone who supports in the bot lane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SummonerMan Matt

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?

This makes 100% sense not sure why people are so mad


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HeyLPG

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
Janna needs 200ap to get her old zephyr movement sped buff back

Janna needs 140ap to get her old slow value back on zephyr

Lulu needs 167ap to let pix do the same damage as before

Sona needs 100ap to get the same movement speed bonus on celerity

Soraka got the passive they removed Mikael's Crucible which was deemed as choosing between 2 bads, either healing more when a target is lower health, or healing less when he's at higher health.

Soraka needs 600ap to shred the same magic resist as she did before

Soraka's ally needs to be at >33% life or less to heal just as much with Astral Blessing

Soraka's allies need to be at >58% life to have the same amount healed from her wish


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tsaalyo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IonCannonKarthus View Post
We are complaining about a balance team that wants to remove harmless summoner spells for no reason other than to force them to not be taken, do you really expect us take what you guys decide seriously anymore? We've seen entire play styles massacred, champions gutted and then buffed to high heavens via knee jerk reactions. If this is still preseason as you say, then why couldn't you have left the supports alone and gone through with the rest of the changes so the community can see for itself how things were?

Preemptively nerfing things has NEVER ended well for League, it just leaves us distrusting the decisions of your team more and more. So I ask you, why couldn't the support changes wait until the patch after this? This IS preseason after all.
Morello, Riot, please ignore this man. He's been making thread after thread, *****ing that his teleport/revive suicide Karthus strategy is going away. No amount of reasoning will placate his aspergers. Just move on.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ultra Sniek

Junior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It is now. Solo support no longer is an overtuned mage.
That's a really stupid way of thinking. "Hey guys, every champ should be able to play a duo lane, but not every champ should be able to play a solo lane, so we'll nerf one class of champs really hard to prevent them of doing exactly that. Now go have fun with your support champion at botlane while the enemy takes a real mage bottom lane that can buy all of his mage item now he has enough money for it without solo-laning anyway. You'll get crushed by 1500 AP dmg ults and we nerfed your shields, heals and everything else so you can't sustain against it ".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
14 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi ramfan View Post
Yeah, we're reacting to a temporal, possible problem in a time when they'll happen. Do you know why we do that these days?

Because in the past, you have nerfed champions to the ground for being slightly overtuned. And then you left them there. For MONTHS. You left Karma in the dumpster for 2 years before even attempting to fix her (and she's arguably still in the dumpster now). You left Heimerdinger in the trash for two years. Eve in the trash for two years. Olaf for six months. Alistar and Urgot since late Season 2 (with seemingly no end in sight).

So forgive me when I see an entire class of champions losing massive amounts of damage at all stages of the game for a tiny amount of bonus utility late game and calling it a nerf. And please forgive me for being under the impression that you would forget about a support or two and leave them in the trash for months or more. You've evolved past that as a design team now, I'm sure.

Problem is, the community doesn't just want to hear words anymore. We heard words and got almost no action for most of Season 3 (see: the three month stretch in the summer when there were 9 ranged champions every game). That, I think, is why some of your posts are getting downvoted; because for the last few months we have seen an awful lot of words from Riot and not many improvements.

There's absolutely no problems with planning ahead with buffs and nerfs and saying,"well, if Janna/Nami comes out underpowered we could try X or Y." After all, if they don't come out underpowered you never have to put X or Y into play, you can just throw them away.

But wouldn't it be better to be proactive about this type of thing instead of reactive?
You're comparing characters who are toxic and unhealthy for years instead of big preseason changes; this is the response to EXACTLY one of those problems (supports feel bad and are ward-*****es), and just like in Season 2, (League of X doesn't exist now, right?) we'll do what we need to.

"We'll buff the numbers on the support scaling rations in mostly non-damage ways, or nerfs extreme duo-lane offenders if needed/appropriate." That's the plan, basically - it's simple, and by necessity is reactive. What we've done here IS the proactive approach like giving them non-damage scaling and not going hard on the numbers tweaks.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tsaalyo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsaalyo View Post
Morello, Riot, please ignore this man. He's been making thread after thread, *****ing that his teleport/revive suicide Karthus strategy is going away. No amount of reasoning will placate his aspergers. Just move on.
And since it's Morello, obligatory Eve 2012.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HeyLPG

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're comparing characters who are toxic and unhealthy for years instead of big preseason changes; this is the response to EXACTLY one of those problems (supports feel bad and are ward-*****es), and just like in Season 2, (League of X doesn't exist now, right?) we'll do what we need to.

"We'll buff the numbers on the support scaling rations in mostly non-damage ways, or nerfs extreme duo-lane offenders if needed/appropriate." That's the plan, basically - it's simple, and by necessity is reactive. What we've done here IS the proactive approach like giving them non-damage scaling and not going hard on the numbers tweaks.
Proactive my ass.