Bye Bye Supports

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Hayaishi

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Still not sure why i'd pick Sona over Annie when all off Annie's spell have more damage and are almost the same as crescendo.

Damage will always be better than utility, not even an overloaded kit like Thresh can change this.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
7 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi ramfan View Post
Please tell me how having increased slow percentage based on AP is at all close to being as effective as having 200-300 more damage. Because that's the choice in bot lane right now.

Do I pick Sona for 5% more slows when I build some AP? Or do I pick Annie for 500 more damage when I build AP?

Do I pick Janna to peel for my AD carry, or do I pick Lissandra to peel for my AD carry while dealing massive damage?

Do I pick Lulu to wombo combo with my mid laner, or do I pick Orianna to wombo combo while dealing damage?

The choice between supports and utility mages with the current numbers is a completely false choice; utility mages have the same utility as supports AND deal more damage with gold invested into them. Why, then would you ever pick a traditional support when you can pick Annie, Zyra, Ori, or Liss?

It's one thing to say you want to keep traditional supports viable. It's another thing entirely to actually do it.

To prove that you're actually planning on how to keep traditional supports viable, tell us how you plan to buff each and every traditional support in patch 3.15 in the event that they come out of this patch unpickable and underpowered. You have clearly thought about these changes for a while, and so you shouldn't have a problem telling us what your plan is should the supports not be pickable after 3.14.
Because if we knew what to buff to bulwark for unknown tuning differences on characters, then we'd already have done it based on having the information that they're undertuned :P It'd be reactive to the particular problems that are there. It's not a huge stretch to say Orianna is overtuned already, though does that mean Janna needs buffs, or something else?

You guys are reacting to what is a temporal, possible problem in a time when those will be the case; preseason. There's a specific reason we wait until between Ranked Seasons to do this stuff - to make sure the details can be managed before it's "for keeps." The direction is theory-craftable, but details really aren't.


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Darqside

Senior Member

11-20-2013

I think a lot of you don't even like playing support yourselves. Not all, but many.

I only see this change will increase the viability of tanky support. I bet we are going to see different play on many champs.

I always loo forward to the changes of this game.

@Suckmasternerftown

I like the changes. I'm just hoping it works out the way you plan.
..

.......

Bring old Karma back. ty


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Tesla23

Member

11-20-2013

aba


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
8 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceplosion View Post
I'm guessing 50% of people who downvoted your post didn't actually bother to read it considering just how fast the downvotes came, so probably morose the first than the second. That said, many of us do have real concerns in regards to the scaling, and want a mature conversation in which we can voice our concerns. Others of us want to spend all their time making threads about how "ROIT CAN'T BALANCE FER ****" instead of trying to change things for the better with constructive criticism.

Welcome to GD



Thanks for the quick response! I'll wait and see how Thresh does in season 4, although I may have to start building him in a more fighter-esque manner if that's how you plan on balancing him.

Likely so on Thresh - I'm not confident he's right either. Though I am pretty sure he'll still be good :P


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Mirage Night

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Contested is fine - I don't think only six characters should have a place in a lane - but as long as they're not overtaken or obsoleted (or even really marginalized) by alternative options, then it's a good variety.

I'm not convinced that Janna needs 750 point shields that give 200 AD to be comparable to an Annie, though :P That was reasonably normal in a lot of our playtests before changes. Again preseason and particular balance will be in flux (and we'll address).
Your reaction speed when an apparent flaw in a design has never been good when it comes to certain game balance changes that is need to make a champion viable. It would have been fine to introduced the support scaling, WITHOUT the nerfs to begin with and then adjust down, rather then starting weak and have to adjust up.


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Prototype909

Senior Member

11-20-2013

I don't think anyone here takes an issue with the support system (Getting gold, less ward burden, etc.) changes. I think in general those are seen as an uncontested buff to supports.

What people are worried about is AP Utility mid dominance of bot lane, because there's already an existing set of champions who are able to bring both utility AND greater scaling damage into bot lane. The fear is that the changes to the support role will benefit these champions more than support champions.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but that's pretty much why I think people are down-voting. They have this fear and don't think that it's something that has been addressed, or are unsure if it's even on your radar as a potential problem.

People see utility mentioned as an advantage that support champions have, all the utility in the world isn't better than just killing you flat out with something like Annie burst.

And don't even get me started on Soraka or Alistair. Trash throughout Season 3 and they aren't seeing any perceivable help.


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Dirtbaggery

Member

11-20-2013

just do what ive been doing for the past 2 years. Refuse to play support!


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

11-20-2013

I just don't get why you'd nerf supports damage capabilities, then buff their utility capabilities when the entire problem you're facing right now is having Mages come to bot lane who already have utility, and deal immense damage for the support role.

So basically, you nerfed the damage of supports, but completely left the mage's that support alone.

That's the problem. You either nerf the mages, or you buff the damage of supports. Nerfing their damage is not an option.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).
But you're not giving Soraka, Janna, and Sona an extra 3000-6000 gold. You're giving whoever duo lanes as support an extra 3000-6000 gold.

Didn't you guys just make a big deal about the difference between support champions and the support role? Because you're acting like that's not an issue anymore. Nothing's forcing us to pick Soraka. If she's still going to scale worse with gold than Annie or Lux, why wouldn't we just take Annie or Lux? Heck, why not take Nidalee or Kayle, both of whom have pretty good heals and can protect their carry better (Nidalee with traps, pro-active poke, and eventually the threat of a courgar form execution, Kayle with her slow and invulnerability ult)? Kayle scales really really hard with gold but she also doesn't need a whole lot of it to be effective.

Part of the issue is that you guys still haven't fixed resistances. It's still very unrewarding to build tanky for most champions; most of the time, you'll feel better just building damage. A support Annie with a DFG at 30 minutes is still going to be able to erase a squishy from the teamfight while stunning everyone else. No matter how much utility a support has, there is no harder form of CC in this game than death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.
It's a great premise. It really is. I love the idea of support champions claiming the support role because they can support better than utility mages can support + nuke, and I do see the need to nerf their damage in recompense for scaling utility (or else they'd just essentially become utility mages themselves).

But the numbers just don't seem to add up. You can go on about how we don't know what it'll be like when supports have gold but we've all played in games where the Janna or Soraka or Lulu went mid. It was unimpressive, even at their old numbers. Not horrible (all three are decent laners) but come teamfights they're just lacking. Heck, I used to take Janna mid all the time when I was playing with my newbie friends on my smurf just to tie one hand behind my back and prevent myself from stomping too hard. It was actually really fun but it's not all that amazing at level 30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
For me at least, real disagreements. In tl;dr form, that they'll scale sufficiently well with gold to justify picking them, and that you seem to have tried to balance them against their old selves instead of against their true S4 competition.