Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Priamos

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Morello the point is that Janna/Lulu is being nerfed relative to Annie/Fiddle, who is not getting her ratios reduced (and is a stronger support in competitive right now anyways).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Faceplosion

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.
First off, thank you for responding an listening to the community. I recognize that you're putting forth serious effort to listen to our concern.

We recognize that you have taken steps to prevent this issue from occurring, but in our opinion you haven't done enough to make playing a "traditional" support more enticing than playing another character in the support role. I'll wait until the patch roles out and people play around with all of the new stuff, but it seems to me that a great deal of champions will be played in the support role. My problem with this would be lessened is supports had strong viability in other roles, but as of now few do (I used strong viability rather than viable possible. AP Sona mid is possible, but not competitively viable.)

Somewhat of an unrelated question, but why isn't Thresh getting any changes? I outlined some of the changes I thought he could use in here, if you have a moment to skim through.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zyras Honey Pot

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.
Even with a 0 gold meta S3's winding down period saw traditional supports starting to be replaced (Or at least, contested) by the like of Zyra, Fiddle and Annie at the competitive level.

By nerfing support ratios yet leaving those champions (largely) untouched and adding gold into the mix, can that really be called a buff for supports? Sure supports as a 'class' might be better off compared to their S3 selves, but does that really take into account their competition?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
3 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priamos View Post
Morello the point is that Janna/Lulu is being nerfed relative to Annie, who is not getting her ratios reduced (and is a stronger support in competitive right now anyways).
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Priamos

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
I agree, but Janna has been nerfed several times since she was a viable solo laner. Not too sure about the Lulu case.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beeker911

Senior Member

11-20-2013

As a support main, these changes are amazing. GJ Morello and Riot!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
4 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prototype909 View Post
Even with a 0 gold meta S3's winding down period saw traditional supports starting to be replaced (Or at least, contested) by the like of Zyra, Fiddle and Annie at the competitive level.

By nerfing support ratios yet leaving those champions (largely) untouched and adding gold into the mix, can that really be called a buff for supports? Sure supports as a 'class' might be better off compared to their S3 selves, but does that really take into account their competition?
Contested is fine - I don't think only six characters should have a place in a lane - but as long as they're not overtaken or obsoleted (or even really marginalized) by alternative options, then it's a good variety.

I'm not convinced that Janna needs 750 point shields that give 200 AD to be comparable to an Annie, though :P That was reasonably normal in a lot of our playtests before changes. Again preseason and particular balance will be in flux (and we'll address).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MightyReg

Senior Member

11-20-2013

If support would be that strong with farm, they'd go mid

They're not going mid because you nerfed their ratios to remove them from mid, it's overkill to hit their ratios again when they already can't solo lane properly


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Revanchrist

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Contested is fine - I don't think only six characters should have a place in a lane - but as long as they're not overtaken or obsoleted (or even really marginalized) by alternative options, then it's a good variety.

I'm not convinced that Janna needs 750 point shields that give 200 AD to be comparable to an Annie, though :P That was reasonably normal in a lot of our playtests before changes. Again preseason and particular balance will be in flux (and we'll address).
but how can you justify lowering her damage on her q and w? thats actually LESS agency on her part because now she relies on her teammates for damage even more


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sophitia

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
I posted an entire thread on it. But since you have a habit of only nit picking topics that don't offer detailed criticism, I guess I'll just post it for you here :|

Janna is my favorite champion in the game, and I've played around 700 ranked games with her this season. I actually feel like Janna is incredibly balanced in the support role and mid role in her current state, and I don't agree with the PBE changes being a buff to her overall. If anything, she's breaking even in the support role.

First off, she won't be viable mid anymore imo, as they've pigeon-holed her into the support/adc lane. I think her support value will still be "OK" but people are vastly over-estimating how much her shield is going to help her through the game.

Everyone keeps posting pics of her giving like 150 AD, but that's with 1000+ AP. I'm sorry, but support Janna realistically is never going to get that much AP in a typical game, and it will normally be under 100 AD. Janna's overall power is being shifted in a way that I don't agree with.

Here's the math behind it - Best case scenario, Janna is going to get like 500 AP in a typical game, and maybe 200 or so in a game not going well.

With 500 AP at a .1 scaling ratio, that's ~100 total AD on her shield (50 base + 50 from the ratio).

With 200 AP at a .1 scaling ratio, that's ~70 total AD with her shield (50 base + 20 from the ratio).

These are also all late game values. Early game and mid game, the shield buffs will be pretty much unnoticeable.

Her ratio nerfs are not worth the buff she's getting in this regard - She's losing a huge amount of damage from her Q and W in place of buffing her ADC more. This is making her entirely dependent on her ADC being well to do and competent, while also forcing her to stay with her ADC the entire game. Before, Janna had potential to split push and do other interesting strategies even in a solo lane. She's being made very one-dimensional in this regard.

Why pick Janna when you can pick a support like Zyra or Annie who can CC hard AND deal a great amount of damage at every stage of the game? I can't speak as much for the other supports, but from what I've played around with on the PBE, Janna and other traditional supports are actually in a very bad place in comparison to them.

If you're intent on nerfing Janna's AP, then keep the .5 ratio on W (which has been nerfed all the way down from the .8 it was a long time ago) and keep the base .35 flat ratio on Q. In exchange, increase the scaling on Q to .15 per second. This gives Janna incentive to actually charge the tornado and make plays with it and do a decent amount of damage if it actually hits. Also revert the changes that decreased the damage the charged tornado did over time - this is again counter productive to her actually charging the tornado and making interesting plays with it. The slowest moving projectile in the game SHOULD do a fair amount of damage, especially given the fact you can actually see it charging before it slowly moves toward you.