New Raka sounds so damn good.

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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

11-19-2013
3 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooly or Cooly View Post
Your design seems counter-intuitive, and leads me to believe every support is going to be worthless in comparison to a utility mage or a bruiser with a stun. Why take soraka over a nidalee, when both can get items,but nidalee brings damage and a higher-scaling heal? Nobody is going to care about janna being able to speed you up more, or lulu bringing a more cripling slow, when that is all they have. I know that I would rather have a xin Zhao with a brutalizer at level 6 over the soraka with a kages. Your design team claims they want supports to experience the same kind of end-game power as every other role, yet you give them more items in exchange for nerfed ratios. More items mean less if the champions dont scale.
Our goal is to have supports scale utility more with items and non supports scale damage more with items, with both of those types being attractive choices to put in a duo lane as a non farming champion. If the utility scaling that's currently present isn't enough to compensate for the lack of damage versus say, AP mages, then we'll buff that utility. What we don't want to do is just turn supports into utility mages (some utility, high damage) - they're a different class that offers a distinct experience and we'd like to enhance that, not homogenize that.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Our goal is to have supports scale utility more with items and non supports scale damage more with items, with both of those types being attractive choices to put in a duo lane as a non farming champion. If the utility scaling that's currently present isn't enough to compensate for the lack of damage versus say, AP mages, then we'll buff that utility. What we don't want to do is just turn supports into utility mages (some utility, high damage) - they're a different class that offers a distinct experience and we'd like to enhance that, not homogenize that.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel you guys are overemphasizing the power of utility to a degree.

Don't get me wrong, nothing beats Fiddlesticks 3 year fear, but when it comes to choosing between a dedicated stunbot (ie: Sona or Nami) and someone that can stun but also put out good damage (Annie, Orianna, Lissandra, Syndra), I feel like most people will choose damage over small utility bonuses like a minor armor or speed boost. The scaling just isn't... well noticeable.

I guess it comes down to the utility scaling feeling much like the "invisible power" you guys often dislike in passives.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Our goal is to have supports scale utility more with items and non supports scale damage more with items, with both of those types being attractive choices to put in a duo lane as a non farming champion. If the utility scaling that's currently present isn't enough to compensate for the lack of damage versus say, AP mages, then we'll buff that utility. What we don't want to do is just turn supports into utility mages (some utility, high damage) - they're a different class that offers a distinct experience and we'd like to enhance that, not homogenize that.
Soraka's utility, in general, is inferior to the other "traditional" supports and even utility mages.

-MR shred - nerfed
-Armor buff - duration nerfed, values buffed (20 second cooldown, lol wut)
-Heal/mana restore - considered toxic design during lane phase, nearly worthless late game (350 heal vs one ADC autoattack, hurrrr)
-Silence - Its nice. Doesn't stop Trondmore or other non AP champs though.

I can understand some of the other support changes you guys are doing, but for Soraka/Sona its questionable.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

11-19-2013
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
Hey Meddler, I promise I'm not being inflammatory here. I'd like to get Riot's thoughts on this matter.

What was the thought process behind nerfing many of the traditional, non-tank supports as we head into the preseason? The rationale seems to be something like "well, now they will get money so we have to tone them down a bit." I just don't think this logic holds up, and I think it goes against your established goals for the next season.

If supports were in such a powerful position that getting gold would break them, why are they not overpowering in solo lane situations? Sure many of these champions can get by in a solo lane, but they aren't wrecking teams once they get gold. I've heard the argument that this is because the traditional supports are amazing in a duo lane while crappy in a single lane. I don't think this is the case, however. It might hold a tiny bit of weight, but overall there's nothing in a Lulu, Sona or Soraka kit that means they absolutely have to play with someone else.

This isn't my biggest point, however. The real issue I see here is that the setup, as of now, seems to really undermine your goals for season four. The new season is being sold as a breathing new life into the support role, and nerfing those traditional supports as the season starts makes me think it's going to feel contradictory. If the changes hold as is, I think we will eventually see a massive decline in traditional, AP-based supports while tanky supports and "utility mages" will become even more popular. As you mentioned, the topic can be revisited at that point and I am confident that the problems would be fixed with time. But wouldn't it be better to avoid a "Black Cleaver situation" like last year? Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of supports and see if they come out too strong and then nerf them down if they are overbearing?

I'm just really puzzled why the exciting vision, gold, and utility changes are being tainted by nerfs for traditional supports right from the start.

If it helps, the champions I think are being clearly nerfed are Soraka, Janna, Sona, Taric, and to a lesser extent, Lulu.
As above we'd like supports to be strong choices, picked for their utility in particular. If it turns out after this patch goes out that we've overestimated how strong they'll be (could well happen) we'll buff, likely in the next patch.

R.E. current core supports not dominating in solo lanes a lot of their power in lane is underutilized if it's not augmenting an ally as well as the support in question (Sona's auras, 2nd heal on an ally for example). There's also some team comp impact (you're either not giving your ADC a support or running a two support team for example) which may or may no be desired.


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GreyRush

Junior Member

11-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2c&usp=sharing

Yellow areas are input locations, everywhere else is calculated with formulas. Everything is accurace except the CD reduction on W.

Rest in piece MidRaka, you were a comedy option before, now you're a flat out troll pick.

GG S4 supports kicked out of everywhere and chained to botlane, slaves to the master race ADC.

Support will still be the chump role nobody wants, these changes only exist to pacify support mains' complaints of no income.

6 item full build live Soraka is subpar, why would you nerf her in S4.
You really do have to remember, league has always had and will continue to have champions that are just better at some things than others; Soraka has always been a duo laner at heart, and wasnt exactly meant to be played alone. You may say thats enforcing the meta, but when certain champions are meant at their core to fill a certain role, why would you try and push them away from it?


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mertatron

Senior Member

11-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Our goal is to have supports scale utility more with items and non supports scale damage more with items, with both of those types being attractive choices to put in a duo lane as a non farming champion. If the utility scaling that's currently present isn't enough to compensate for the lack of damage versus say, AP mages, then we'll buff that utility. What we don't want to do is just turn supports into utility mages (some utility, high damage) - they're a different class that offers a distinct experience and we'd like to enhance that, not homogenize that.
but as u see on soraka .. her only real utility scaling is her mr shred (which got nerfed hard - 600 AP needed to reach the 12 mr shred now) and her armor boost (which also has been nerfed in a way since it's only 2sec now) .. why not maing CC better with AP ?? duration longer .. the more AP the more u silence ?

I don't think the changes will make her better and make her playable again bot lane.


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Mid Soraka

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Senior Member

11-19-2013

I want to post a guide about soraka, but I'm afraid it will make soraka to get popular and make soraka to get nerfed oom oom

After reading all Meddler's post about possible underestimate of the utilities, I'm scared =( I am sure my guide will get a lot of hate from Meddler and Morello O_o


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Furi Kuri

Member

11-19-2013

My ass you will buff them in the next patch. Soo many supports and other champions were nerfed to hell in season 3 and you guys didn't buff them back at all.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyRush View Post
You really do have to remember, league has always had and will continue to have champions that are just better at some things than others; Soraka has always been a duo laner at heart, and wasnt exactly meant to be played alone. You may say thats enforcing the meta, but when certain champions are meant at their core to fill a certain role, why would you try and push them away from it?
Because the role she's meant to fill is filled better with other champs, and the S4 changes will only make this worse. Mid Soraka was fun to play, but with the massive infuse damage nerfs, that's out of the question now.

Why would you play Soraka over other supports? I mean aside from liking her character, she doesn't actually bring all that much to any part of the game.


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mertatron

Senior Member

11-19-2013

those core support, janna, sona, soraka .. are weak vs all ins .. and I fell we're gonna see a lot of really aggressive lane matchups with the new support items.

and I really don't see how those supports will be able to stay there when they have their damage nerfed, their defenses nerfed (at least the heals) and their utility nerfed unless they get 100 AP or more.

while leon, pantheon, blitz, thresh, annie, fiddle got unchanged and already dominated lanes.


so it's just me ... but u should have uped the core supports early game so that their early game isn't nerfed and maybe tned down their endgame .. and give them better ratios or I don't know ... but not nerfing thir early game.

coz yeah usually, u don't start with 100 AP