New Raka sounds so damn good.

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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTR15 View Post
Just as an experiment, I'm doing some math.

If Raka builds Tear and RoA, and takes the new upcoming mastery for 6% more mana, she could easily have over 3k mana by end game. These two items alone will also give her 232 AP(80 from RoA, and 60+92 from Seraph).
So you are investing in a 5500 gold build and the 10 minutes to charge RoA and Archangels just to bring Soraka back to the point she is now. Meanwhile all the supports are buffed from their first AP item.

Barring the fact that your build is really bad, you really don't see a problem with this?


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NTR15

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyCake View Post
your build is absolute trash, soraka is designed to gain an advantage early game and snowball off of that.

this means you can't build late game items such as tear or roa, not to mention you will never be a threat to anybody with lack of mobility and cc.

athene is for mana problems, you NEED rylais in order to have some kiting power.

just your garbage suggested build already tells me you have never played solo lane soraka much, at least in ranked games.

no, a 5% mana ratio is not good enough justification to build mana like ryze. why don't you build ap on ad champions that randomly have 1 ap ratio then.
Then get Rylais over Frozen. The build I suggested results in her having enough AP to have stronger heals and attacks than she does now if built how she normally is. It results in her having near Tank HP, even more so if you go Rylias. It results in her E nerf being overrun.


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Abroad Unicorn

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
We're not trying to nerf Soraka, instead aiming to adjust her play style to fit with the preseason changes and have a healthier pattern (in combat saves and action over staying back and topping off her team). As with all the core supports we've made some adjustments to if this does turns out to be a giant nerf we'll put some power back into them in the follow up patch. Similarly if our assessments been wrong in the other direction, and some supports end up too strong following the preseason patch, we'll tone their power down.

TLDR: Let's talk a week or two after the patch goes out once things have been experimented with and settle down a bit and we'll then adjust power as needed.
Your design seems counter-intuitive, and leads me to believe every support is going to be worthless in comparison to a utility mage or a bruiser with a stun. Why take soraka over a nidalee, when both can get items,but nidalee brings damage and a higher-scaling heal? Nobody is going to care about janna being able to speed you up more, or lulu bringing a more cripling slow, when that is all they have. I know that I would rather have a xin Zhao with a brutalizer at level 6 over the soraka with a kages. Your design team claims they want supports to experience the same kind of end-game power as every other role, yet you give them more items in exchange for nerfed ratios. More items mean less if the champions dont scale.


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
We're not trying to nerf Soraka, instead aiming to adjust her play style to fit with the preseason changes and have a healthier pattern (in combat saves and action over staying back and topping off her team). As with all the core supports we've made some adjustments to if this does turns out to be a giant nerf we'll put some power back into them in the follow up patch. Similarly if our assessments been wrong in the other direction, and some supports end up too strong following the preseason patch, we'll tone their power down.

TLDR: Let's talk a week or two after the patch goes out once things have been experimented with and settle down a bit and we'll then adjust power as needed.
Hey Meddler, I promise I'm not being inflammatory here. I'd like to get Riot's thoughts on this matter.

What was the thought process behind nerfing many of the traditional, non-tank supports as we head into the preseason? The rationale seems to be something like "well, now they will get money so we have to tone them down a bit." I just don't think this logic holds up, and I think it goes against your established goals for the next season.

If supports were in such a powerful position that getting gold would break them, why are they not overpowering in solo lane situations? Sure many of these champions can get by in a solo lane, but they aren't wrecking teams once they get gold. I've heard the argument that this is because the traditional supports are amazing in a duo lane while crappy in a single lane. I don't think this is the case, however. It might hold a tiny bit of weight, but overall there's nothing in a Lulu, Sona or Soraka kit that means they absolutely have to play with someone else.

This isn't my biggest point, however. The real issue I see here is that the setup, as of now, seems to really undermine your goals for season four. The new season is being sold as a breathing new life into the support role, and nerfing those traditional supports as the season starts makes me think it's going to feel contradictory. If the changes hold as is, I think we will eventually see a massive decline in traditional, AP-based supports while tanky supports and "utility mages" will become even more popular. As you mentioned, the topic can be revisited at that point and I am confident that the problems would be fixed with time. But wouldn't it be better to avoid a "Black Cleaver situation" like last year? Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of supports and see if they come out too strong and then nerf them down if they are overbearing?

I'm just really puzzled why the exciting vision, gold, and utility changes are being tainted by nerfs for traditional supports right from the start.

If it helps, the champions I think are being clearly nerfed are Soraka, Janna, Sona, Taric, and to a lesser extent, Lulu.


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Alphard

Senior Member

11-18-2013

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Originally Posted by NTR15 View Post
Then get Rylais over Frozen. The build I suggested results in her having enough AP to have stronger heals and attacks than she does now if built how she normally is. It results in her having near Tank HP, even more so if you go Rylias. It results in her E nerf being overrun.
My god how can you claim you know what you're talking about when you never played soraka for more than 300 games and probably sitting at silver elo...

Its funny rioter and this guy has the same ideas. It makes me wonder if these nerfs and changes in this game is made by silver level players LOL


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NTR15

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miyabi Doll View Post
My god how can you claim you know what you're talking about when you never played soraka for more than 300 games and probably sitting at silver elo...

Its funny rioter and this guy has the same ideas. It makes me wonder if these nerfs and changes in this game is made by silver level players LOL
The honest truth here is that I am attempting to provide situations where Soraka will be able to be much stronger than she is now. Right now she is an APless ward dispenser. With the upcoming changes, she can have much stronger heals, stronger attacks, the biggest nerf (her E), can be completely undone and made up for, and she will even be tankier. ALL AT THE SAME TIME. If this is not enough, the Rioters have already said numerous times that they will buff her. The fact is they have to see IF all these changes will be enough for her, because giving a champ all this potential is very risky.


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KirbyCake

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTR15 View Post
The honest truth here is that I am attempting to provide situations where Soraka will be able to be much stronger than she is now. Right now she is an APless ward dispenser. With the upcoming changes, she can have much stronger heals, stronger attacks, and even the biggest nerf (her E), can be completely undone and made up for. She will even be tankier. If this is not enough, the Rioters have already said numerous times that they will buff her. The fact is they have to see IF all these changes will be enough for her, because giving a champ all the potential is very risky.
you know who you sound like

a person who has never played soraka ever


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTR15 View Post
The honest truth here is that I am attempting to provide situations where Soraka will be able to be much stronger than she is now. Right now she is an APless ward dispenser. With the upcoming changes, she can have much stronger heals, stronger attacks, and even the biggest nerf (her E), can be completely undone and made up for. She will even be tankier. If this is not enough, the Rioters have already said numerous times that they will buff her. The fact is they have to see IF all these changes will be enough for her, because giving a champ all the potential is very risky.
Right, right. You keep repeating the same tired argument over and over. I get it that Soraka will be stronger now that she has gold. So will any champion you take to support.

I'll make this very simple for you: Why would I pick Soraka as a support over another champion? I could have a Fiddlesticks, or Annie, or Orianna, or Lux, or a Jarvan or Leona, or Nami, or Sona, or Nidalee.


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Elewd

Senior Member

11-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Miyabi Doll View Post
No you wont. You never fix things you guys nerf on. Look at diana, she almost never played because your little readjustment. Look at akali? Hello? Just because she facerolled low elo you guys nerfed her to oblivion. Look at zac, zed, kha zix, singed and many other you guysnerf. It a disaster amd you know it. No offense but does riot let ANYONE make these game changes? Because the things you guys been tampering has been terrible to be quite honest. I honestly can't recall a fair nerf. You guys think nerfing these supports will help them in s4 when in reality anyone with a brain will just abuse apc like annie in bot lane. I'm excited to see these wonderful changes in s4, like the HUGE jungle diversity we were suppose to get every season but backfired miserably.
all the champions you listed there have solid pickrates. Ruby you need to stop listening to one person and get a dose of reality, just because you are in a E-relationship with kirbycake doesn't mean you have his knowledge.
Keep in Mind that Kirbycake is a 1trick unicorn. all he knows how to do is play soraka at a diamond level.


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NTR15

Senior Member

11-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Hidden Dragon View Post
Right, right. You keep repeating the same tired argument over and over. I get it that Soraka will be stronger now that she has gold. So will any champion you take to support.

I'll make this very simple for you: Why would I pick Soraka as a support over another champion? I could have a Fiddlesticks, or Annie, or Orianna, or Lux, or a Jarvan or Leona, or Nami, or Sona, or Nidalee.
My same tired argument is that she will be stronger than she is now, yes. This is what I'm driving at. Without actually having these changes go live, where everyone is testing it all, you cannot sit here and say that "Champion X, Y, and Z will be better than the new, stronger Raka." You can't say that about any of the supports, because these changes have yet to go live where they can be extensively tested by everyone.

My argument is she will be stronger. My argument is you have no clue if her stronger version will be able to compete with the AP mids if taken bot.

Everything in this thread is based upon heavy assumptions, but yet you, and many others are acting like you know exactly how it will turn out without even seeing it happen.