Skarner, I miss your kind

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Chad Warden ABAP

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Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryFurball View Post
Oh, that's funny. Here I thought the majority of the feedback thinks the rework is bad. Just give QoL fixes to his E and R and leave the rest of his kit as it is.

But nah. Let's not listen to the people who don't like the new kit at all, which seems to be the majority. Let's just continue with it and pull another Karma fiasco.
This a hundred times. I had my placement matches ruined with leavers in my last four games, so whenever I play with my Gold 1 friend, people complain about a Bronze 1 Skarner on their team. 80% of the time I end up not only doing well, but usually carrying pretty hard. Skarner doesn't even need changes in my opinion, but if he did, he'd just need some number adjustments. Make his shield actually useful, increase his E's heal slightly, and he's golden.

You're risking throwing away his entire fan base with this. People who play Skarner love him the way he is, they just wish his numbers were better.


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LaFreeze

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11-14-2013

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Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
This is correct, but it also isn't the entire story. If you need someone who pulls an enemy and kills them, then Darius will do that job better than Skarner. However, you could also need someone to peel melee enemies away from your carries or to disrupt a teamfight, and you could need someone to help lock up a single target assassins are diving.
Hmmmm good point, good point indeed, but lets play devil's advocate here: Is it really the job of a melee fighter like Skarner to disrupt team fights and peel melee enemies away or is that the role of a tank or tanky support like Leona? Isn't a melee fighter, particularly a hybrid melee fighter like Skarner, supposed to build damage and get kills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Some other good points.
I'd only add that in addition it seems to be that Skarner is a little hard to build right now compared to some other champions which unfortunately exacerbates his issues.


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Shahamut

Senior Member

11-14-2013

"There is always a bigger fish..."

It wouldn't really matter to me if there was a champion that does each of Skarner's potential jobs "better". Truth is, there is almost ALWAYS someone who does something better. And usually its based on situation.

My problem is that what it looks like Skarner is supposed to be good at, what the makers seem to have built him for, he doesn't do that well. He can clear jungle pretty quickly, but pre level 6 his ganks are not that great. In lane, he has a hard time trading damage, even with the heal on his E. For someone who is listed as a primary fighter and a secondary tank, his damage output seems sub par, and his tankiness is a bout as good as anyone else, (which means he needs items, which means early game its still anyone's battle).

I personally really like Skarner's Kit. It has a shield and run buff (I wouldn't mind the attack speed being taken off, but only if it became a passive somewhere else), consistent hybrid damage output(one of my favorite aspects)with slow to make it hard to escape once you get there(not impossible, just slightly more difficult) and something to poke with (wish the range were longer, never really notice the heal). Top it off with an ultimate that suppresses the target, its a pretty nifty kit.

I think MINIMAL change if any is really needed for Skarner's kit. I still think moving the sustain to the shield either in the form of bonus AR/MR passive or increased health regen while active (or both?) would be really cool. Or doing things like buffing the W or E with Crystal Energy charges.

But really, the main thing that really NEEDS fixed is his cooldowns and his mana costs. You fix those, he has a much better chance than now. Running out of mana while your opponent still has 1/2 or more of their resource in a duel is incredibly frustrating.


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Chad Warden ABAP

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11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFreeze View Post
Hmmmm good point, good point indeed, but lets play devil's advocate here: Is it really the job of a melee fighter like Skarner to disrupt team fights and peel melee enemies away or is that the role of a tank or tanky support like Leona? Isn't a melee fighter, particularly a hybrid melee fighter like Skarner, supposed to build damage and get kills?
Unless you're a carry jungle, it's your job is to provide your lanes with the opportunity to get kills, and take them only when alone, or someone else is unable to get to them anyway. If you're laning Skarner top, than it's acceptable to get the kills and remain super offensive, but take a look at his kit real fast:

Q - Great AoE hybrid damage with permaslow. This ensures enemies cannot get away so long as he can continue using his Q over time. The hybrid damage ensures that someone building to counter their lane can still be countered. (I.E.: Someone building to counter a Tryndamere can get peeled by the bonus magic damage.)
W - Shield with movement speed increase to help reach enemies, buffer damage, and keep up with flash, ghost, and blink abilities escaping his Q. Provides some movespeed, but not enough to instantly catch someone and get them with a Q before the energize buff wears off.
E - Medium damage skillshot that gives slight heal. Meant for jungle or lane sustain, can be used to poke if enemy is within range and slowed.
R - Ultimate that bursts magic damage, allows you to reposition, Q in the process, and then burst another small amount of magic damage. This can easily be used to reposition enemies for your allies to receive the kill otherwise. Oftentimes I will grab someone, and take them back to a location where my AD carry can get a kill without risk of getting attacked after the suppress ends.

His kit is one of the most versatile in the game in that his kit offers lane, and jungle pressure in physical damage, magical damage, slight tankiness, sustain, crowd control, etc. You can honestly build Skarner anything except Ranged AD.

Quote:
I'd only add that in addition it seems to be that Skarner is a little hard to build right now compared to some other champions which unfortunately exacerbates his issues.
His build really isn't difficult. 90% of my games I just get a Spirit of the Ancient Golem, Ninja Tabi, Iceborn Gauntlet, and Wit's End. With those four items alone, I get about 160 armor, 140 Magic Resist, 500 bonus health, 20% CDR, bonus attack speed to help the passive knock my cooldowns off, 10% basic attack reduction, ability power, tenacity, another source of slow every few seconds, bonus mana, health and mana regen, and more. Usually if I even can build something after, I grab a Sunfire, or even a Frozen Mallet if I have some gold lying around and feel like being the biggest ass in the game.

He's fine the way he is. He can cover all sorts of ground, and honestly I have no idea why people even consider him weak or useless. He's ridiculously strong in the right hands, and even my friends have admitted that they think Skarner is "My champ" in that he's who I perform best with, and they haven't ever really disliked me jungling him at all.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Warden ABAP View Post
His build really isn't difficult. 90% of my games I just get a Spirit of the Ancient Golem, Ninja Tabi, Iceborn Gauntlet, and Wit's End. With those four items alone, I get about 160 armor, 140 Magic Resist, 500 bonus health, 20% CDR, bonus attack speed to help the passive knock my cooldowns off, 10% basic attack reduction, ability power, tenacity, another source of slow every few seconds, bonus mana, health and mana regen, and more. Usually if I even can build something after, I grab a Sunfire, or even a Frozen Mallet if I have some gold lying around and feel like being the biggest ass in the game.

He's fine the way he is. He can cover all sorts of ground, and honestly I have no idea why people even consider him weak or useless. He's ridiculously strong in the right hands, and even my friends have admitted that they think Skarner is "My champ" in that he's who I perform best with, and they haven't ever really disliked me jungling him at all.
First, I want to critique your item build. Particularly, I think that the purchasing of Iceborn Gauntlet and Wit's End are usually non-ideal. Attack speed isn't good on Skarner unless you have 40% CDR (you always get more effective CDR from actualy CDR items than from a minor boost to the utilization of Skarner's passive), and the AOE slow from Gauntlet is somewhat wasted on Skarner. Instead, try building an early sheen to use for a late-game triforce, and building Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage more often. Spirit Visage is extremely strong item in general, and it synergizes with Skarner's E very well. The Frozen Heart provides greater tankiness than Iceborn Gauntlet while giving more CDR, and it also frees up the Sheen for a triforce, which makes better use of Skarner's high base AD. Also, if you are late in the game, don't build a Sunfire Cape for Armor+HP. The damage is good early but falls off very fast, and you don't need it to push. Randuin's will give you much more teamfight potential while also giving you more defensive stats.

Secodnly, any champion can be strong in the right hands. There are people who have risen to Diamond 1 with Poppy, Urgot, Pre-rework Eve, and even "insert weak champion of your choosing here". That has never been a criteria for determining whether a champion is good or not. The problem with Skarner is not only that he does he not have any job that he does better than another champion, but he doesn't have any jobs he even does as well as another champion, and ever since the itemization nerf to resistances, he hasn't had the tank potential to make himself work in roles that other champions have better kits for. There is never a situation where Skarner is, independent of the skill of the person playing him, an equal pick to another champion. We can't say that about Nautilus, Jarvan, Vi, etc. They all are at least as good at their roles in some situation as another champion would be. Skarner isn't.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFreeze View Post
Hmmmm good point, good point indeed, but lets play devil's advocate here: Is it really the job of a melee fighter like Skarner to disrupt team fights and peel melee enemies away or is that the role of a tank or tanky support like Leona? Isn't a melee fighter, particularly a hybrid melee fighter like Skarner, supposed to build damage and get kills?
That is one role, but verstaility is also part of champions. For example, take Jarvan. He can either build tanky DPS and be a huge threat to carries, or he can build tanky and use his abilities to peel enemies from his carry. He is able to play multiple roles despite being a melee fighter. We can see this in Skarner too. Say that in a game, you have a Jinx that gets unbeliveably fed, but the enemy team gets a Renekton who is just stomping everything. In that game, unless you have the ability to solo the enemy carries (which, as a jungler, may be difficult), your priority would most likely be keeping Jinx safe by stopping the Renekton. This is where Skarner would be superior to Darius. While Darius can just pound on the Renekton after pulling him once, Skarner could pull and them permaslow the Renekton, or more efficiently slow the advance of the enemy team so they couldn't follow up on the Renekton.

So, to put it another way: Darius almost always wins straight manfights, but he hasn't become superior to other melee fighters because of it. Darius completely lacks versatility, while other melee fighters can adapt their role while Darius is always pure tanky DPS. That is why other champions get played even though Darius almost always wins in a straight fight (there are other reasons too, but that is a large one). Tanky DPS does not have to be a melee fighter's only role. Versatility and adaptability helps (and that is one of the things Skarner used to excel at before the itemization nerfs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFreeze View Post
I'd only add that in addition it seems to be that Skarner is a little hard to build right now compared to some other champions which unfortunately exacerbates his issues.
I don't find it too hard to build him right now (Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage are good choices now that you can build sheen without needing an Iceborn Gauntlet anymore), but his itemization is significantly harder than it used to be, particularly since he gets less out of resistances since their nerf. It's not a particularly positive point for Skarner, but it can be worked around.


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vennomite

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Get rid of the nerf on skarner's w. keep the q as is. i know you guys are going away from slows and all, but come on. That's seriously one of the most fun things about him. Also, instead of the band aid fix on his ult why not make it go sooner. At least then you don't have to feel robbed of a good flash grab.
also, his e is pretty worthless and the rekit to make it slow is not even interesting.
If you want to change the permaslow why not just make his autos apply it instead? at least then he can only do it to one target (still ruins him for me. but hey, his jungle clear this season has been pretty awful and is top lane is sketchy but can work quite well.)


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Shahamut

Senior Member

11-14-2013

I would like to add that I like the idea of giving his E more range


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
This is correct, but it also isn't the entire story. If you need someone who pulls an enemy and kills them, then Darius will do that job better than Skarner. However, you could also need someone to peel melee enemies away from your carries or to disrupt a teamfight, and you could need someone to help lock up a single target assassins are diving. These are both roles that Skarner beats Darius at because of his permaslow and movement speed. However, Skarner is inferior at both of these roles compared to other options. He is inferior at peel compared to Sej, Naut or Maokai, he is inferior at disruption compared to Xin or Hecarim, and he is inferior at dive and assassin protection when compared to Jarvan or Vi or even (situationally) Maokai. The problem isn't just that Darius does Skarner's job better than Skarner. The problem is that everyone does some aspect of Skarner's job better than Skarner.
It's going to get a LOT worse without Permaslow.. Without permaslow, Skarner is 1/2 the champ of every champ you just listed in a team fight. He is gonna turn into an R button, and that is literally it. A 70 second champion worth about 3 seconds in a team fight.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
It's going to get a LOT worse without Permaslow.. Without permaslow, Skarner is 1/2 the champ of every champ you just listed in a team fight. He is gonna turn into an R button, and that is literally it. A 70 second champion worth about 3 seconds in a team fight.
I want the permaslow to stay, but I still have to severely disagree with your assessment here. Skarner's teamfighting isn't at risk with these changes. With the removal, we limit Skarner's chasing potential and his ganking: this is likely true. However, for mid-late game teamfights when Skarner is running 30-40% CDR, he'll pretty much be strictly better. Being able to keep a 100% uptime slow on nearby opponents is not strictly more useful than a stronger 75-80% uptime slow that can be applied at range. Having the ability to be attacking one target while slowing another brings significant value. Skarner's teamfighting is not at risk from this change: In fact, with the removal of the steroid from the easily broken shield and the ability to apply the slow to priority targets, I would say it is one of the only things that the rework will actually make stronger (although it will come at a significant cost to his 1v1 and skirmish power).

Dude, I want the permaslow to stay too, but that doesn't mean that the rework will lead to completely negative outcomes for any potential situation Skarner can be in. There will be some situations where he is stronger (arguable not enough though). You can come to the conclusion that the negatives of the rework outweigh the positives (I'm leaning that way right now), but if you can't acknowledge the existence of any positives (such as increased teamfighting potential) then you need to reevaluate.

Edit: Deleted a bit that wasn't helpful to the point I was making.