@Phreak on vayne

First Riot Post
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Iron Angel 2k3

Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belisarius09 View Post
@Phreak

Phreak I think if you were to apply many of these same arguments you've used concerning Vayne and applied them to Akali you would sound so hypocritical. You say things like "pick good fights" "Utilize brush" "don't duel her" to show that Vayne isn't OP and deny these criticisms others bring up about her being able to "outstat" her opponents and the lack of counter play available. Yet when you talk Akali you say she is too strong, when I feel that all of these same arguments you used for Vayne can apply the same way to Akali yet you come to exactly the opposite conclusion. I wish you would be more consistent in your assessment of champions.
Akali is melee though and obviously evil.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-30-2013
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eve The Ripper View Post
I wager that's because you can itemize to beat Quinn. She has one disengage and gives it up to go melee range for optimal damages. It makes her annoying, but not insurmountable 1v1.

Vayne probably isn't op (don't personally have enough info to know), but the difficulty of catching her (disengage, mobility, invis) and the difficulty of itemizing against her (true damage, AA reset) make for a much more frustrating getting owned than a standard, Quinn domination.

TL;DR If Quinn beats me, I screwed up. If Vayne beats me, there may have been nothing I could do better.
You can bur Armor, QSS, or Zhonya's against Zed.

You can buy MR against Ahri.

You can build health aganst Jax.

You can "not hit the tank" against Shen.

Doesn't keep them from being the best champions in their lane any some point during the competitive scene.

Funny thing is, Quinn beats Vayne. She beats her in lane, and she beats her 1v1. If Quinn wants to kill you, it's actually much easier than if Vayne tried to kill someone. Vayne has to get in range to trigger her passive. She has to get into range for BotRK. She might even have to line up a wall stun. If you keep yourself between her and your base, Condemn is never an issue. You can probably just run away from Vayne, provided you have a turret somewhere close to run to.

Quinn is actually half assassin. (I sort of misspoke before, Vayne is Marksman/Duelist. Quinn is Marksman/Assassin). Quinn hits R while in fog of war. Then she has 100% bonus movement speed, slams you with an interrupt/slow, and goes to town. Also you're blind, so don't think about fighting back. Then she presses R and you die.

Anyways, that's kinda off topic. I think itemization is a piece of the puzzle, sure. I personally would like if Jax just dealt all physical damage because that makes sense to me and helps me itemize. He can pull a Quinn/MF and have an AP ratio on a physical damage ability so that people who like Rageblade/Gunblade/Triforce can feel good about the items.

Either way, all I'm trying to do is illustrate things that players should/shouldn't do against certain champions.


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mi ramfan

Senior Member

10-30-2013

The problem with Vayne isn't Silver Bolts; in fact Silver Bolts is the most balanceable thing in LoL because it has the same, predictable damage effect every time regardless of what Vayne or her opponent build. Nor is it her short term stealth; other assassins have short term stealth that doesn't cause problems.

Honestly, the problem with Vayne is how well she can control spacing in order to remain at her optimal combat distance of less then her AA range but at least 300-400 range away. If you gapclose onto her she can use Tumble to return to her optimal fighting distance. If you try to retreat knowing that you can't win 1v1, she'll use triple passive bonus+Tumble to easily get back into her optimum range. As a result, against Vayne your only option is to fight. You can't run away from her without peeling help (even if you're a tank/bruiser who's responsible for peeling in the first place!), and her great self peel with Condemn->Tumble makes it very, very difficult to chase her if you do cath her in a bad spot.

The other two marksman hyper carries, Tristana and Kog'Maw, obviously have strengths of their own (namely range), I feel that Vayne's complete positional control is a much more valuable tool then Tristana or Kog'Maw have. Sure, Tristana has a resetting 700 range dash and a knockback of her own, but if you jump away from a diving bruiser as Trist you're essentially out of the fight while Vayne can quickly reenter the fight with Tumble and her passive. Sure, Kog'Maw has the highest theoretical DPS and range in the game, but he has absolutely no escape or mobility tools, allowing any assassin and most bruisers to quickly eliminate him. Vayne's combat oriented mobility (as opposed to Trist's escape-only mobility) is just such a powerful tool combined with BotRK and Vayne's myriad steroids that it makes up for the increased range of the other two hypercarries and then some.


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Skarlath the Haw

Junior Member

10-30-2013

I would go nowhere near saying Vayne is op. Anyone is strong if they get ahead; same goes for if the person understands how to move in the game. All mechanics; ONLY thing Vayne has going for her is the 1 second she has to outplay you. If you let her, that's on you.


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Blood Tourniquet

Junior Member

10-30-2013

Please respond to the lag issues


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xProR2D2x

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
You can bur Armor, QSS, or Zhonya's against Zed.
And still you nerfed zed... why D:


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Samflash3

Senior Member

10-30-2013

So if I play Yorick, can I 1 vs 1 her? Oh, but wait, they're reworking Yorick's ult. Why Rito why?


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UATderpyderp

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Neither was Olaf and he still got nerfed to god knows where.


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xProR2D2x

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Vayne is Marksman/Duelist. Quinn is Marksman/Assassin.
What? Isn't it the other way? In every site the tags for Vayne are Marksman/Assassin.


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Cerulean Laser

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xProR2D2x View Post
What? Isn't it the other way? In every site the tags for Vayne are Marksman/Assassin.
That's what I was thinking o.O