@Phreak on vayne

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Vectoradron

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Senior Member

10-30-2013

kinda funny how he said dance on edge of range implying you are always a non-melee champ. Seriously that is most of the problem is melee has entirely too much difficulty with her in every way.


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Echo18

Senior Recruiter

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HailSing View Post
Your title reminds me of a hot movie I watched earlier
which one?


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-30-2013
1 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectoradron View Post
kinda funny how he said dance on edge of range implying you are always a non-melee champ. Seriously that is most of the problem is melee has entirely too much difficulty with her in every way.
I really depends on what lens you look through it.

Thing is, Vayne isn't the highest winrate champion in the game. She's not dominating the competitive scene. She's... good. She's strong. She's not the champion the game revolves around. All the evidence that I have in front of me shows this to me.

There are a million things you could pull out in isolation about any champion, any situation, or any facet of the game, write just those sentences, and then say, "See? The best! The most important! This is what the game's about!"

That's not what I'm about. Players are having a difficult time with Vayne. Some of y'all are frustrated by her. She's very good at what she tries to do (kill individual targets). What I'm trying to do is say, "Okay well look, when you've got a Vayne, here's what you need to remember. Here are the strengths you need to respect. Here are the weaknesses you need to exploit." You can refuse to improve the situation and say, "SEE? Phreak said you have to 2v1 her! Proof that she's OP!" and just keep cherry-picking sentences. Alternatively, you can say, "Okay, I'll try that next time."

The thing is, if you 2v1 Vayne, she actually dies. She literally doesn't have the tools to 2v1 (unless the "2" includes a Sona without her ultimate, or Vayne is stupid far ahead, etc.). If you 2v1 Tristana, she Rocket jumps away and goes... "??? Guys, 2 bot, go take a turret." If you 2v1 Zed, he presses W-E, slowing one of you while jumping across a wall. There's a difference between, "Dude will oneshot you, bring back up" and "Dies if you bring two people."

Every champion is different. Quinn is actually an even more brutal Ranged vs. Melee lane matchup. She's even better at poking at a melee champion every time they last hit (whereas Vayne needs Silver Bolt procs). But her kill potential is totally different. She's much better at assassinating squishy champions (high AD base damages). Her team fight is totally different, as she's more burst-based as opposed to sustained. The ways you deal with Quinn are totally different from the way you deal with Vayne. Depending on your lens, these champions could look super similar, and you could craft a few sentences that makes the situation look hopeless. You could even twist the counter-play points to say "See? These are the only things you can do to kill the champion!" But there's no big forum tirade over how broken Quinn is.


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lichtzimmer

Senior Member

10-30-2013

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Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
But there's no big forum tirade over how broken Quinn is.
yet. This is GD, I'm sure they'll get to her sooner or later.


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Eve The Ripper

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Every champion is different. Quinn is actually an even more brutal Ranged vs. Melee lane matchup. She's even better at poking at a melee champion every time they last hit (whereas Vayne needs Silver Bolt procs). But her kill potential is totally different. She's much better at assassinating squishy champions (high AD base damages). Her team fight is totally different, as she's more burst-based as opposed to sustained. The ways you deal with Quinn are totally different from the way you deal with Vayne. Depending on your lens, these champions could look super similar, and you could craft a few sentences that makes the situation look hopeless. You could even twist the counter-play points to say "See? These are the only things you can do to kill the champion!" But there's no big forum tirade over how broken Quinn is.
I wager that's because you can itemize to beat Quinn. She has one disengage and gives it up to go melee range for optimal damages. It makes her annoying, but not insurmountable 1v1.

Vayne probably isn't op (don't personally have enough info to know), but the difficulty of catching her (disengage, mobility, invis) and the difficulty of itemizing against her (true damage, AA reset) make for a much more frustrating getting owned than a standard, Quinn domination.

TL;DR If Quinn beats me, I screwed up. If Vayne beats me, there may have been nothing I could do better.


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Hallows Evelynn

Senior Member

10-30-2013

isnt didnt vayne OP threads end like 2 months ago? its all about dat jinx now.


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Runix

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The thing is, if you 2v1 Vayne, she actually dies. She literally doesn't have the tools to 2v1 (unless the "2" includes a Sona without her ultimate, or Vayne is stupid far ahead, etc.). If you 2v1 Tristana, she Rocket jumps away and goes... "??? Guys, 2 bot, go take a turret." If you 2v1 Zed, he presses W-E, slowing one of you while jumping across a wall. There's a difference between, "Dude will oneshot you, bring back up" and "Dies if you bring two people."
If you 2v1 Vayne, she just Tumbles away. If she's really in trouble, she just ultimates and Tumbles away for a guaranteed escape. Are we talking about the same Champion? Your description sounds a lot more like Ashe than Vayne.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the problem with Vayne is Tumble. Immediate, on-demand repositioning is just extremely powerful, and I'm not sure the design team understands that. All of the Champions who have it are top tier (Ezreal, Lee Sin, Aatrox) with only a few exceptions (Lucian - except in Korea, where he's top tier).

It's not just that Vayne is auto-attack that makes her frustrating - it's that she can reposition at will and can peel her own targets. That gives her very high survivability, and that means she can generate very constant, very high damage across long fights whether 1v1 or 5v5, which is what makes her very difficult to deal with.


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amonkeybutt

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I personally don't have trouble with Vayne. Don't 1v1 her, that's her territory, and I get that. But the amount of mobility allows her to do too much. Just the IMO of a bronze 3 nooblord.


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bananaTOWN

Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I really depends on what lens you look through it.

Thing is, Vayne isn't the highest winrate champion in the game. She's not dominating the competitive scene. She's... good. She's strong. She's not the champion the game revolves around. All the evidence that I have in front of me shows this to me.
Darius didn't have those either but u narfed him 2


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XcSDeadDeer

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by lichtzimmer View Post
yet. This is GD, I'm sure they'll get to her sooner or later.
I dont think she has the attractive kit that GD likes. Once she dominates on the pro scene, or gets a super awesome skin, we may see that day.

Today is not that day


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