@Phreak, you're better off as a live balancer that shoutcaster

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Whyu

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I appreciate the kind words.

I have an interest in game design, but TBH I really like yelling about how cool pro plays are and stuff .

Now to be completely fair, our live design guys are way better than me at this stuff. I can explain play/counter-play as a high-level player, and I think I make pretty good posts on the subject, but saying, "I wish you balanced because look at these guys" is just wrong, sorry.

For example, the guys talking about Sivir's W and her base attack range? I was one of those guys going, "But guys, her range is so short!" However, there are two things that caught me that made me go, "Ohhhh..."

1. Champions have a power budget. Every point of armor, attack speed, and range sucks up some of that budget. Renekton wouldn't get to nearly the same stuff that he does if he had 550 range. (Also it would be pretty awkward). Nimble champions like Quinn and Vayne have pretty low effective ranges. But this lets us make the rest of them more powerful (Seriously I've been on the receiving end of Valor full-comboing me and it hurts really bad). If Sivir gets to be more nimble, more AoE-awesome, and more other stuff as a price for attack range, then that's cool. Why should I pick a champion who isn't Caitlyn? She has the most range! Because this other champion offers something she doesn't. Range is just one axis of power.

2. Sivir's W. Sivir's W will hit you. It has inifinite bounces, and the range is turned to let it bounce from melee minions to ranged minions to champions. There's a reason the damage on the ability has consistently been nerfed on the PBE. Because she will hit you with that ability. Maybe even three times. Three times 50% of her total damage is 1.5 her total damage. It's not a skill shot. It can't be dodged. You have to leave the lane. Sivir's W only gets to be so freaking powerful if she has a weakness when it's down.

Kog'Maw has had 500 range since forever. When he hits W, it goes up. Sometimes over 700. Despite having 500 range, he's been the #1 AD Carry in the game at times, without his range ever being touched in any of the buffs and nerfs. Kog'Maw's W overcame his weak base range. Why can't Sivir?

Because Sivir's W is awesome. She hits basically everything on the screen for 1.5-2.1x her total attack damage. Play the champion. See how awesome Ricochet is. It's awesome. Sivir pays for Ricochet's power budget by having lower range when it's down. Because her range is the screen when it's up.

*Okay, some exaggeration in the post. But this is an example of why those dudes are smarter than me :P
Isn't there an issue if a champion (or small sub-set of champions) are pushing other champions in the same role out of play?

Look at how often Vayne and Caitlyn get picked in comparison to other ADC's? Isn't that an issue? If you look at ADC's as a group, there's maybe the top 4-5 that predominantly get picked over the others. Isn't that an issue?

Isn't it the same reason we have seen significant nerfs to supports, or even to other ADC's, because they were pushing others in their role out of the game? Aren't players simply pointing to a larger issue when they point to Vayne?

It will be interesting to see how often Sivir is picked after this rework.


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NiceanLoH

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I'd be careful with how you describe range as part of the power budget, though. Range is the single most powerful stat in the game. Cait's abilities, to be honest, are very underwhelming, but that's because she has permanent 650 range starting at level 1. Meaning a competent Caitlyn can and will poke you out of CSing beginning the second she sees you. Range seems like it'd be a huge part of the power budget.

Low range has to be compensated for by extremely powerful abilities, like Trynd's invulnerability, his dash, and gigantic AD debuff and inherent stats.

We're worried that giving Sivir a relatively lower range stat isn't compensated by her W, which is without doubt her best ability barring situationally her spell shield. I do appreciate the huge range on it, but it's not very consistent, and relatively easily avoided if they stay away from the creep line. We'll have to wait and see, though. This isn't Olaf, where it was obviously from Day 1 still an awful character (which worries me that you guys go that route, but that's a different topic). Olaf's a good example of range not being compensated for by powerful abilities, I'd think.

Maybe I'm spouting off, though.

That said, I think she's now actually more of a mid character, so this may all be moot. And she does FEEL waaaay better, so well done to you guys there. Power levels are adjustable, but this new character is straight up fun to play.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Vayne relies on walls, Nidalee relies on Brush, Rumble wants narrow hallways, Morgana/Galio/Amumu want people grouped up and not all areas of the map look the same.

Completely disagree, sir. Your location on the map should be a relevant detail for how you fight.
You're using words wrong.

Vayne BENEFITS from walls, she does not need them at all.
Nidalee BENEFITS from the brush, she doesn't need it
Your other examples all BENEFIT from ideal situations, they are not crippled when its not ideal.

Sivir, on the other hand, has a messed up design. Her Q relies on no minion interference otherwise it does nearly no damage, her W relies on minions present because her range is so ****ing abysmal; getting within range to do a W on a champs might as well be a death sentence.

Other champs have tools to deal with that, Sivir only gets a MS bonus, which I doubt will be enough.


You can dismiss my words now, but the rework will be proven a failure in the future.


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Kr1sys

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
1. Champions have a power budget. Every point of armor, attack speed, and range sucks up some of that budget. Renekton wouldn't get to nearly the same stuff that he does if he had 550 range. (Also it would be pretty awkward). Nimble champions like Quinn and Vayne have pretty low effective ranges. But this lets us make the rest of them more powerful (Seriously I've been on the receiving end of Valor full-comboing me and it hurts really bad). If Sivir gets to be more nimble, more AoE-awesome, and more other stuff as a price for attack range, then that's cool. Why should I pick a champion who isn't Caitlyn? She has the most range! Because this other champion offers something she doesn't. Range is just one axis of power.
The only problem I see with a 'power budget' is that I'm pretty sure Riot doesn't discuss those budgets in a zero sum capacity. While you add/modify x champion with y power budget you shift everyone else's budget in a certain direction(usually down). That's why you only have a limited competitive champion pool. That's why some ~60% of the champions in the game weren't used in Worlds, and some never picked or banned in LCS.


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The Toad

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I think we're all forgetting Sivir brings something unique to the League of Legends roster.
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Needles K

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Vayne relies on walls, Nidalee relies on Brush, Rumble wants narrow hallways, Morgana/Galio/Amumu want people grouped up and not all areas of the map look the same.

Completely disagree, sir. Your location on the map should be a relevant detail for how you fight.
Are you really suggesting that having a guaranteed kill near walls and being a strong duelist otherwise is equivalent in power to tickling everything on screen in the case where everything on screen is standing in a careful formation?


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The Scyphozoa

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
You're using words wrong.

Vayne BENEFITS from walls, she does not need them at all.
Nidalee BENEFITS from the brush, she doesn't need it
Your other examples all BENEFIT from ideal situations, they are not crippled when its not ideal.

Sivir, on the other hand, has a messed up design. Her Q relies on no minion interference otherwise it does nearly no damage, her W relies on minions present because her range is so ****ing abysmal; getting within range to do a W on a champs might as well be a death sentence.

Other champs have tools to deal with that, Sivir only gets a MS bonus, which I doubt will be enough.


You can dismiss my words now, but the rework will be proven a failure in the future.
Wait, so Sivir's "crippled" when there are no minions, but she also relies on there being no minions?

You mean she has different ways of dealing with different situations?
And that's bad somehow?


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matrinox

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
Considering most/all champs are 100% effective no matter what the current status of the map is, yes, a mechanic that relies on minions as a crutch is awful design.
It does not rely on minions. Does her W say "must hit minions"? No. It can use minions to extend the range but obviously she can use it in a team fight and hit everyone without minions around.


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IronMarauder

Member

10-30-2013

@Phreak , you guys at riot are awesome, balancing a game that is this popular is bound to get negative results sometimes from the fans and i feel sorry when I see posts that are purely negative about what you guys are trying to achieve. If i worked for riot i feel i would get so frustrated at the fans i would give the fans the middle finger and unbalance the game just b/c i could and then abandon it. You guys have much more patience and tolerance than i do. keep it up <3


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Needles K

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Scyphozoa View Post
Wait, so Sivir's "crippled" when there are no minions, but she also relies on there being no minions?

You mean she has different ways of dealing with different situations?
And that's bad somehow?
Yes, because deals inadequately with both situations. If each of her skills were godlike in its best case, no, it wouldn't be a problem. But in reality, she just has half of a not-very-powerful kit at any given time.


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