@Phreak, you're better off as a live balancer that shoutcaster

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ZodiarkSavior

Senior Member

10-30-2013

To be honest, I really like the feeling of the new Sivir. Some instinct tells me hard engage compositions are going to love her. Running around with 550 movement speed is no laughing matter.


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EvilTreeSpock

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Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I appreciate the kind words.

I have an interest in game design, but TBH I really like yelling about how cool pro plays are and stuff .

Now to be completely fair, our live design guys are way better than me at this stuff. I can explain play/counter-play as a high-level player, and I think I make pretty good posts on the subject, but saying, "I wish you balanced because look at these guys" is just wrong, sorry.

For example, the guys talking about Sivir's W and her base attack range? I was one of those guys going, "But guys, her range is so short!" However, there are two things that caught me that made me go, "Ohhhh..."

1. Champions have a power budget. Every point of armor, attack speed, and range sucks up some of that budget. Renekton wouldn't get to nearly the same stuff that he does if he had 550 range. (Also it would be pretty awkward). Nimble champions like Quinn and Vayne have pretty low effective ranges. But this lets us make the rest of them more powerful (Seriously I've been on the receiving end of Valor full-comboing me and it hurts really bad). If Sivir gets to be more nimble, more AoE-awesome, and more other stuff as a price for attack range, then that's cool. Why should I pick a champion who isn't Caitlyn? She has the most range! Because this other champion offers something she doesn't. Range is just one axis of power.

2. Sivir's W. Sivir's W will hit you. It has inifinite bounces, and the range is turned to let it bounce from melee minions to ranged minions to champions. There's a reason the damage on the ability has consistently been nerfed on the PBE. Because she will hit you with that ability. Maybe even three times. Three times 50% of her total damage is 1.5 her total damage. It's not a skill shot. It can't be dodged. You have to leave the lane. Sivir's W only gets to be so freaking powerful if she has a weakness when it's down.

Kog'Maw has had 500 range since forever. When he hits W, it goes up. Sometimes over 700. Despite having 500 range, he's been the #1 AD Carry in the game at times, without his range ever being touched in any of the buffs and nerfs. Kog'Maw's W overcame his weak base range. Why can't Sivir?

Because Sivir's W is awesome. She hits basically everything on the screen for 1.5-2.1x her total attack damage. Play the champion. See how awesome Ricochet is. It's awesome. Sivir pays for Ricochet's power budget by having lower range when it's down. Because her range is the screen when it's up.

*Okay, some exaggeration in the post. But this is an example of why those dudes are smarter than me :P
You should make a "Learn how to League with Phreak at 2 AM" stream special. I'm sure a lot of people would learn from you seeing as you are not just a high level player but one who is able to explain things in a way that I think is very easy to understand.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

10-30-2013

So the reason Sivir is gutted is because she can hit a champ using minions?


Has the balance team considered the possibility that there might not be minions to bounce off of? You know, because they're only in lanes, and they die, and they respawn every 30 seconds.


Oh GOD what are you people even thinking over there...


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TreeFitty

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I would just like to point out, Kog's W increases his range (among doing other things) which helps make up for his garbage base range.

Sivir has no sort of a range increase, so whatever Sivir's skill are doing is just increasing the power elsewhere to make her horrific range less of a detriment.(also isn't sivir's base even lower than kog's? with no range modifier to boot.)

Feels like a pretty significant difference.


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Commando Yi

Senior Member

10-30-2013

this is the same guy that claimed warwick has no counter play then goes to absurd lengths to defend vayne saying how she can't 3v1 melees

i don't think i'd want him on the balance team because he can't put aside his own personal bias


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OneDragonArmy

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FishbonesForPres View Post
I would just like to point out, Kog's W increases his range (among doing other things) which helps make up for his garbage base range.

Sivir has no sort of a range increase, so whatever Sivir's skill are doing is just increasing the power elsewhere to make her horrific range less of a detriment.(also isn't sivir's base even lower than kog's? with no range modifier to boot.)

Feels like a pretty significant difference.
You just explained it. They're trying to make Sivir scale off cdr and ad rather than the usual as/ad/crit by making her abilities stronger. Effective range is not autoattack range. Vayne's effective range is always 550 period. Sivir has her long range Q, and W ricochet should hit every person in a teamfight 3 times. Higher effective range. You can basically get free autos on their squishies by bouncing it off their front line if I'm understanding the ability correctly.

I'm not saying it's powerful, will work, or is a good idea, but that's their intent. Kog doesn't get 700+ range all the time. Sivir doesn't get to spread damage across their team with every auto.

They have the same base range of 500.


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Risotadazo

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FishbonesForPres View Post
I would just like to point out, Kog's W increases his range (among doing other things) which helps make up for his garbage base range.

Sivir has no sort of a range increase, so whatever Sivir's skill are doing is just increasing the power elsewhere to make her horrific range less of a detriment.(also isn't sivir's base even lower than kog's? with no range modifier to boot.)

Feels like a pretty significant difference.
You've missed the point; Phreak says Sivir's w effectively is a range increase when minions are around, and a fairly potent one. And no, they have the same base range 500 = 500.


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Risotadazo

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
So the reason Sivir is gutted is because she can hit a champ using minions?


Has the balance team considered the possibility that there might not be minions to bounce off of? You know, because they're only in lanes, and they die, and they respawn every 30 seconds.


Oh GOD what are you people even thinking over there...
So Sivir has some situations in which she is stronger than others because her effective range is situational. Do you really think a champion has to have the same effectiveness in all situations to be good?


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

10-30-2013

We also need shoutcasters who understand the game. That's why we have Jatt, Kobe, and Phreak, and why we invited Dlift and Krepo for Worlds.

If you ever heard the commentary from season 1/2 that weren't big tournament matches, you would know what a difference a caster's in-game skill makes. Actually, listen to the informal casts for the qualifier matches for S4. They are a little like S2 shoutcasts. There are incredibly few people like Montecristo who can analyze the game without being a top player. You can even see the difference between D1 players like Phreak and Kobe, and the insight Dlift and Krepo could offer, who are world-class players. Skill is important. But so is entertainment, and that's why we have guys like Quickshot to complement them.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-30-2013
2 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjaxon View Post
Too bad the Olaf rework used about a 10th of his power budget.
That's true. We buffed him in 3.13. If he needs more buffs, we will do that. Sorry about that!


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