There is no counter to silver bolts

First Riot Post
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KilljoyX

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commando Yi View Post
if you have 1000 hp the % true damage portion will deal 80 damage
if you have 2000 hp the % true damage portion will deal 160 damage

and of course there's the flat true damage base before that
1000 HP

100 damage + 100 damage + 100 damage (3 hits) +60+8% true damage
300 physical damage + 140 true damage, 7-9 hits would be required to kill based on armor.

2000 HP
100 damage + 100 damage + 100 damage (3 hits) +60+8% true damage
300 physical damage + 220 true damage
~12-15 hits based on armor.

Looks to me like HP and armor works just fine. Learn to math GD. Learn to math.


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MaitreJoris

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Senior Member

10-30-2013

Seems like we can guess who keeps bugging the balance team to not touch Vayne.


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xXnarutosaskeX12

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I don't usually upvote reds since most of the time they post random **** and everyone does the good ol circlejerk, but phreak is pretty correct about vayne...


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Minishmaster

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
One thing I'm doing recently while playing is, after every single game, going to the "Graphs" section and clicking "Damage Dealt to Champions" along with "Physical" and "Magical" of the same category. I usually just do this for guys like Kog'Maw, Vayne, Corki, Nasus, Shyvana... guys who are going to be pretty split, to help me figure out what types of damage these guys are really doing.

From what I've tracked of Vayne games, it's in the low 20%s. I encourage all of you guys to do the same to see if I've just gotten a really awkward set of data or just to see for yourselves.

20% bonus damage is a lot. So is bonus 90% attack speed from Rapid Fire. Almost all ADCs have some kind of "deals more damage in a team fight" steroid. I just want to help everyone quantify it, so that we can have the right sorts of discussions.
I play a lot of Tank Gragas and I track the damage from Vayne's silver bolts to be about 40-60% of the damage she deals to me.

If I can tank a four item Tristana for 15 seconds, even with her rapid fire, but it only takes 8 seconds for a four item Vayne to whittle me down, then that is also a pretty significant difference.

The issue with true damage is that it has no counters, and this includes immunity to things that are designed to counter damage. Champions like gragas and malphite are designed so that they don't need to worry about autoattacks the same way the average champion does, but on hit true damage takes that away from them.


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amonkeybutt

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I have no issue with silver bolts. It's her insane mobility that kills it for me.


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Mogs01gt

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Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
20% bonus damage is a lot. So is bonus 90% attack speed from Rapid Fire. Almost all ADCs have some kind of "deals more damage in a team fight" steroid. I just want to help everyone quantify it, so that we can have the right sorts of discussions.
That 90% AS increase on Trist isnt all that helpful when Vayne Q's, then condemns trist into a wall before poor trist can get her W off. I would hope that Trists support champ has plenty of CC to handle Vayne.

Hell if we are talking about AS abilities, poor Graves has to make sure he either dashes toward his turret. If he dashs up towards river or towards the bush, here comes that condemn...


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OctaSteve

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Is this a "Vayne OP" thread, or a "%MHP TD is counterlogic" thread?

I thought it was the latter, but people seem to be going for the former.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-30-2013
5 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by 103percent View Post
Caitlyn's headshot takes twice as long to achieve and doesn't work near as well on the targets that are actually hard to kill for an ADC (the big annoying tanks/brusiers).
I don't work in champion design. I'm speaking from the perspective of a Diamond-level player on how to play around powerful champions and how to use their strengths/punish their weaknesses. If you don't want advice on how to play against champions you find difficult to play against, then don't.

Caitlyn's Headshot does stack up half as quickly (or exactly as quickly if you use brush). She can also store it and make sure she uses it on the target she wants to. If Caitlyn has a headshot stored up and you don't want to take it, you have to sit over 650 range away until she attacks something. If Vayne has a 3x Silver Bolt ready on you, you have to sit over 550 range away until she attacks something, Condemns something, or about 5 seconds pass.

But yes, Vayne is much better at killing off tanks. One of her strengths is her ability to deal significant damage to tanky targets. One of Caitlyn's is her extreme range and safety.

I could make the case that Olaf is the most powerful champion in the game by pointing out that he's the only champion in the game who is fully immune to crowd control and has the highest attack speed in the game. But you likely would point to his other weaknesses and claim that he isn't. Simply saying, "But... Ability!" doesn't make a champion OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagami View Post
This use to be true, but honestly after the mana buffs in the Quinn patch, I don't think I have ever since a Vayne oom no matter how much they use their skills.

She isn't auto-win, but she is extremely unfair to play against because max hp true damage is just gamebreakingly annoying to deal with, if you didn't plan for it in select and enemy last picks vayne you're pretty much screwed.
Vayne pretty much only OOMs if she spams Condemn. She gets to cast a few of them, sure. But I promise you if you set out to Auto-Q-Auto-Condemn harass every 20 seconds, you'll run out of mana.

I'm not saying Silver Bolts isn't annoying. But I just disagree with "gamebreaking" as suitable adjectives for Vayne. Silver Bolts is an inferior steroid to Kog'Maw's Bio-Arcane Barrage at every single point in the game.

Dealing with champions doesn't always come from Champion Select. I'm trying to point out things that almost every champion can do to help inform some counter-play that Vayne has. Play around the Silver Bolts stacking. Make her switch targets. Bring a friend. These are specific kit-based weaknesses within Vayne that any player or champion can use to best her in a fight. Don't play into her strengths. Don't send Jarvan alone to 1v1 her. Recognize that she's half ADC and half assassin. You wouldn't walk up to a level 18 Fizz as Caitlyn. Recognize that Vayne poses a similar threat to isolated targets.


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Splinterheart

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I agree with all your points Phreak and have long since considered Vayne more of a low elo stomper than something broken that needs nerfs.
Out of curiosity, who is the numero uno marksmen in your opinion?


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LupusNox

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I love how Phreak starts off his post by saying "most of her damage isnt even silver bolts related." its mainly AD that can be blocked by armor and health.

Then in all posts and even later in that same one he elaborates on how making vayne not proc her silver bolts by forcing her to switch targets makes her "DPS drop significantly"

Which is it phreak? Does Silver bolts deal a lot of damage or a negligible amount. Cause as a tank I have to say that it hurts when silvers proc.

Also, why so much free **** on her ult that auto-wins her lane at 6?