There is no counter to silver bolts

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

103percent

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Graves's passive still means about 80% to Vayne. Probably more actually, since Silver Bolts will be at level 1 for most of the laning phase. Silver Bolts deals 20 damage + 4% of a target's max health at level 1. For a ~800 HP champion, that's 52 damage. Caitlyn's Headshot deals more damage than that.

Yes, Vayne is good at sticking to an individual target, but not every battle happens in the middle of the lane with nothing around. Try jumping into brush, rooting her in place, or walking out of range. Even if she does reach you eventually, Silver Bolts can still fall off. Is the Vayne really going to sit there chasing the Zyra who has 2 Silver Bolt stacks on her, waiting out the 1.75 second root while a Renekton is hitting her? Or is she going to turn, Condemn him into the wall, and keep going from there?
I'm starting to understand why Sivir's rework went so "well". PS. Caitlyn's headshot takes twice as long to achieve and doesn't work near as well on the targets that are actually hard to kill for an ADC (the big annoying tanks/brusiers).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SwipaNoSwiping

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
She's a strong duelist if you have no good ways of disengaging from her. But I actually disagree with most of the rest of your points. She is entirely single-target focused. So focused, that she can't even switch targets without losing DPS. You beat Vayne by giving her too many things to deal with because she literally cannot deal with more than one target at a time.

Here's how battles should play out against Vayne:

Sitting in lane: Remember her capabilities. Champions like Ahri, Zed, Syndra, Fizz. They can all jump on you and say "DIE!!" if you cross a certain amount of health. Vayne has this ability as well. She's hard to shake off, and it's scary. If she's playing too far up, get a gank. Otherwise, just be careful. If you have a stun, use it before her third attack. If she's spamming Tumble/Condemn to force Silver Bolt procs, she'll run out of mana. This is her big strength, small battles. You have to respect it.

Ganking her: She can only Condemn one of you, and beyond that her escape is low. Land a stun, root, or slow and catch up. She can't stop Nocturne from Ult/Fearing her. She can't outrun fast champions like Nidalee or Quinn. She can outplay a Jarvan. She can't Condemn Sion before he lands Cryptic Gaze. Leona needs to wait until Tumble gets used. Nami can probably get Tidal Wave off regardless. It's important to recognize which abilities she can't dodge, and which need to wait for Tumble to be used.

Team fights: This is where Silver Bolts can be abused. Let's assume a standard "Two melee guys in the front line" situation:

If they're both diving her, bring a pink ward. Use your CC. She can Condemn one of you (resetting Silver Bolts), turn invisible (Vision Ward), and then get Feared/stunned/hooked/whatever. Then the other guy rejoins. She requires just as much peel as any other ADC in this case, so all the normal rules apply.

If they're sitting on the front line, then watch your own Silver Bolt stacks. Back up the second she starts focusing you. If Vayne chases you to get the third hit, she runs into melee range of the other guys, and into spell/autoattack range of everyone else. Vayne will die in this case, or she gives up Silver Bolts DPS.

Now, of course Vayne is strong. She's picked fairly often in competitive play. She's not the #1 ADC; we see that from the matches we watch, but she's good. Teams who can utilize her dueling power and say, "You must send at least two guys to deal with her" and play around that are successful. CLG does this really well. But Vayne is not auto-win. That's all I'm saying.
Preach.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kagami

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
If she's spamming Tumble/Condemn to force Silver Bolt procs, she'll run out of mana. This is her big strength, small battles. You have to respect it.
This use to be true, but honestly after the mana buffs in the Quinn patch, I don't think I have ever seen a Vayne oom no matter how much they use their skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
But Vayne is not auto-win. That's all I'm saying.
She isn't auto-win, but she is extremely unfair to play against because max hp true damage is just gamebreakingly annoying to deal with, if you didn't plan for it in select and enemy last picks vayne you're pretty much screwed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-30-2013
4 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papy Mougeot View Post
I don't understand why you say silver bolt is about 20% of her damage output because this won't be the same depending who she does attack. If the enemy is tanky this number will go up by a lot because it's true damage.

And 20% damage increase for an adc is still a lot.
One thing I'm doing recently while playing is, after every single game, going to the "Graphs" section and clicking "Damage Dealt to Champions" along with "Physical" and "Magical" of the same category. I usually just do this for guys like Kog'Maw, Vayne, Corki, Nasus, Shyvana... guys who are going to be pretty split, to help me figure out what types of damage these guys are really doing.

From what I've tracked of Vayne games, it's in the low 20%s. I encourage all of you guys to do the same to see if I've just gotten a really awkward set of data or just to see for yourselves.

20% bonus damage is a lot. So is bonus 90% attack speed from Rapid Fire. Almost all ADCs have some kind of "deals more damage in a team fight" steroid. I just want to help everyone quantify it, so that we can have the right sorts of discussions.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sohardrightnow12

Senior Member

10-30-2013

phreak just stop. All adcs switch targets in the middle of fights and vayne's kit allows her to do that easily.

"oh their adc is out of position I better finish these last two shots on their tank to get my silver bolts proc" - said no one ever.

She is greater than the sum of her parts and needs to be changed.

Edit: Also the effectiveness of silver bolts increases heavily as the targets armor and health increases relative to your other forms of damage. You take much more than 20% damage from silver bolts if you have 4k hp and 200 armor. That is the point of this thread. There is no way to itemize against it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bladeweed

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
She's a strong duelist if you have no good ways of disengaging from her. But I actually disagree with most of the rest of your points. She is entirely single-target focused. So focused, that she can't even switch targets without losing DPS. You beat Vayne by giving her too many things to deal with because she literally cannot deal with more than one target at a time.

Here's how battles should play out against Vayne:

Sitting in lane: Remember her capabilities. Champions like Ahri, Zed, Syndra, Fizz. They can all jump on you and say "DIE!!" if you cross a certain amount of health. Vayne has this ability as well. She's hard to shake off, and it's scary. If she's playing too far up, get a gank. Otherwise, just be careful. If you have a stun, use it before her third attack. If she's spamming Tumble/Condemn to force Silver Bolt procs, she'll run out of mana. This is her big strength, small battles. You have to respect it.

Ganking her: She can only Condemn one of you, and beyond that her escape is low. Land a stun, root, or slow and catch up. She can't stop Nocturne from Ult/Fearing her. She can't outrun fast champions like Nidalee or Quinn. She can outplay a Jarvan. She can't Condemn Sion before he lands Cryptic Gaze. Leona needs to wait until Tumble gets used. Nami can probably get Tidal Wave off regardless. It's important to recognize which abilities she can't dodge, and which need to wait for Tumble to be used.

Team fights: This is where Silver Bolts can be abused. Let's assume a standard "Two melee guys in the front line" situation:

If they're both diving her, bring a pink ward. Use your CC. She can Condemn one of you (resetting Silver Bolts), turn invisible (Vision Ward), and then get Feared/stunned/hooked/whatever. Then the other guy rejoins. She requires just as much peel as any other ADC in this case, so all the normal rules apply.

If they're sitting on the front line, then watch your own Silver Bolt stacks. Back up the second she starts focusing you. If Vayne chases you to get the third hit, she runs into melee range of the other guys, and into spell/autoattack range of everyone else. Vayne will die in this case, or she gives up Silver Bolts DPS.

Now, of course Vayne is strong. She's picked fairly often in competitive play. She's not the #1 ADC; we see that from the matches we watch, but she's good. Teams who can utilize her dueling power and say, "You must send at least two guys to deal with her" and play around that are successful. CLG does this really well. But Vayne is not auto-win. That's all I'm saying.
there is literally no arguing with the anti-vayne brigade. in their mind, she just stands there, continuously autoattacking, while the opposing team can do nothing. no vi or warwick ult diving into the back line. no sona ult stunning her. no ahri charm, or renekton stun. nothing. that unstoppable 48% win percentage champ, who is like the 5th most popular adc in competitive play.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

InubashiriMomiji

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Now, of course Vayne is strong. She's picked fairly often in competitive play. She's not the #1 ADC; we see that from the matches we watch, but she's good. Teams who can utilize her dueling power and say, "You must send at least two guys to deal with her" and play around that are successful. CLG does this really well. But Vayne is not auto-win. That's all I'm saying.
This continues to feel like this excuse is being cherrypicked to fit Vayne. Let me ask again: How is Silver Bolts, in application, different from the application of Hemorrhage and Noxian Guillotine from Darius? Why is the ability to 2v1 Vayne (Which is also unrealistic considering the AD Carry/Support standard anyway)applicable to her and not to Darius?

We can take your argument listed in that entire post and replace Vayne with Darius and it will fit almost exactly: "Darius should be allowed to remain at his strength because players are able to 2v1 him to reduce his effectiveness." And yet Darius has long since been nerfed and Vayne remains. Why is the logic here to nerf the melee champion that has those same offensive capabilities instead of the ranged one? Isn't there blatant, blatant inconsistency here? Or are you admitting that Vayne is problematic for the same reasons that Darius was considered problematic and yet Vayne is considered an exception for some illogical reason?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gløry

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Try jumping into brush
90% of the bushes in this game are right next to walls, and are probably warded because sightstone. Vayne's gonna hang a sign on your house dat says CONDEMNED.




Which procs Silver bolts for some reason.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Commando Yi

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
She's a strong duelist if you have no good ways of disengaging from her. But I actually disagree with most of the rest of your points. She is entirely single-target focused. So focused, that she can't even switch targets without losing DPS. You beat Vayne by giving her too many things to deal with because she literally cannot deal with more than one target at a time.

Here's how battles should play out against Vayne:

Sitting in lane: Remember her capabilities. Champions like Ahri, Zed, Syndra, Fizz. They can all jump on you and say "DIE!!" if you cross a certain amount of health. Vayne has this ability as well. She's hard to shake off, and it's scary. If she's playing too far up, get a gank. Otherwise, just be careful. If you have a stun, use it before her third attack. If she's spamming Tumble/Condemn to force Silver Bolt procs, she'll run out of mana. This is her big strength, small battles. You have to respect it.

Ganking her: She can only Condemn one of you, and beyond that her escape is low. Land a stun, root, or slow and catch up. She can't stop Nocturne from Ult/Fearing her. She can't outrun fast champions like Nidalee or Quinn. She can outplay a Jarvan. She can't Condemn Sion before he lands Cryptic Gaze. Leona needs to wait until Tumble gets used. Nami can probably get Tidal Wave off regardless. It's important to recognize which abilities she can't dodge, and which need to wait for Tumble to be used.

Team fights: This is where Silver Bolts can be abused. Let's assume a standard "Two melee guys in the front line" situation:

If they're both diving her, bring a pink ward. Use your CC. She can Condemn one of you (resetting Silver Bolts), turn invisible (Vision Ward), and then get Feared/stunned/hooked/whatever. Then the other guy rejoins. She requires just as much peel as any other ADC in this case, so all the normal rules apply.

If they're sitting on the front line, then watch your own Silver Bolt stacks. Back up the second she starts focusing you. If Vayne chases you to get the third hit, she runs into melee range of the other guys, and into spell/autoattack range of everyone else. Vayne will die in this case, or she gives up Silver Bolts DPS.

Now, of course Vayne is strong. She's picked fairly often in competitive play. She's not the #1 ADC; we see that from the matches we watch, but she's good. Teams who can utilize her dueling power and say, "You must send at least two guys to deal with her" and play around that are successful. CLG does this really well. But Vayne is not auto-win. That's all I'm saying.
again i need to emphasize that this is a 5v5, not vayne going 1v2 against two melee's

tanks that do well against other adcs fall very apart very quickly against a team that's protecting a vayne because we want to be the focus of the enemy teams cc so that our carries can deal damage - only getting stunned/snared with an enemy vayne nearby means losing about 50-70% of your health bar on a tank

hell, kogmaw can do similar but atleast he has the weakness of no escapes or self peel (as he should) to compensate for his high damage output


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kagami

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
20% bonus damage is a lot. So is bonus 90% attack speed from Rapid Fire. Almost all ADCs have some kind of "deals more damage in a team fight" steroid. I just want to help everyone quantify it, so that we can have the right sorts of discussions.
there is a difference between steroids and an ability that has 100% uptime, and zero costs.