Why are we forced to wait 20 mins to surrender?

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peacepagoda

Junior Member

10-29-2013

About 2/3's of my games tonight were 4v5 because of a rager or disconnection. Why must we wait 20 minutes to get to a fair game? Why not 10 at the most? Is there a reason behind this?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-29-2013
1 of 1 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacepagoda View Post
About 2/3's of my games tonight were 4v5 because of a rager or disconnection. Why must we wait 20 minutes to get to a fair game? Why not 10 at the most? Is there a reason behind this?
Sorry to hear you encountered so many leavers and ragers today.

The reason we go to 20 minutes is to ensure that people have complete games most of the time, and get to enjoy the various stages of the game, including the feeling of winning. At lower surrender times, we were concerned that people would throw in the towel for stuff like giving up first blood, losing first tower, etc. There are certainly situations where you can lose by 10 minutes, but they are fairly rare if you aren't at the pro level. So, we think 20 mins is a good balance.

- Zileas


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

10-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Sorry to hear you encountered so many leavers and ragers today.

The reason we go to 20 minutes is to ensure that people have complete games most of the time, and get to enjoy the various stages of the game, including the feeling of winning. At lower surrender times, we were concerned that people would throw in the towel for stuff like giving up first blood, losing first tower, etc. There are certainly situations where you can lose by 10 minutes, but they are fairly rare if you aren't at the pro level. So, we think 20 mins is a good balance.

- Zileas
Please improve the system to allow an earlier surrender when there's been a leaver.
Having someone d/c before minions spawn is painful. Having 2 people do it should allow an immediate (after their grace period to reconnect is gone) surrender.

For example:
To count as a d/c for surrender, a player must be gone for 5+ minutes, and be currently offline.
If one player on your team is d/c'd, you can surrender at 10 minutes (which means you have to have been down a player at least 50% of the game so far, and currently down a player).
If two players on your team are d/c'd, you can surrender at 5 minutes (if they never made it past the loading screen).
If three or more players on your team are currently disconnected, the game can be surrendered at 2:00.
If both teams have d/c players, then they count against the other's total (so if both teams are down a player, surrenders occur as normal).

The 5 minute rule is in to prevent "oh we're losing, if I d/c, my team can surrender".
I've won a few 4v5 games, but less than 10% of them.
I've never won a 3v5 game.

Also, 20 minute surrender timer on ARAM = total ****. I've seen 5v5 ARAMs end in under 12 minutes due to bad team comp balance. And those are blessed for ending so early - others drag on because the team playing Easy Mode doesn't want to end it - they want to drag the game on, but the losing team can't force the game to end til 20:00


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Seany P

Recruiter

10-30-2013

Because there are the few that hate when teams surrender, especially when the game isn't even a stomp. The last thing we need is a team surrendering at 5mins because they got aced at lvl 1.


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Sword of Eris

Senior Member

10-30-2013

I leave the player behavior board for a day and Zileas starts posting. o.o

I'm in the presence of greatness!


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The Onix Mage

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Sorry to hear you encountered so many leavers and ragers today.

The reason we go to 20 minutes is to ensure that people have complete games most of the time, and get to enjoy the various stages of the game, including the feeling of winning. At lower surrender times, we were concerned that people would throw in the towel for stuff like giving up first blood, losing first tower, etc. There are certainly situations where you can lose by 10 minutes, but they are fairly rare if you aren't at the pro level. So, we think 20 mins is a good balance.

- Zileas
You are right, actually (as far as your predictions of what'd happen at earlier time surrenders). There's been too many games I've been in when a enemy team (or my team) would be 3 kills ahead and they're saying in all chat 'gg we lose.' It's funny, because half of those games, the team that had the disadvantage would end up winning due to smarter game play. I would love it if you keep the 20 minute rule for surrender. Really, waiting 20 minutes to surrender isn't that big of a deal at all ('ve been in a few games where the 4 member team ended up winning).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Please improve the system to allow an earlier surrender when there's been a leaver.
Having someone d/c before minions spawn is painful. Having 2 people do it should allow an immediate (after their grace period to reconnect is gone) surrender.

For example:
To count as a d/c for surrender, a player must be gone for 5+ minutes, and be currently offline.
If one player on your team is d/c'd, you can surrender at 10 minutes (which means you have to have been down a player at least 50% of the game so far, and currently down a player).
If two players on your team are d/c'd, you can surrender at 5 minutes (if they never made it past the loading screen).
If three or more players on your team are currently disconnected, the game can be surrendered at 2:00.
If both teams have d/c players, then they count against the other's total (so if both teams are down a player, surrenders occur as normal).

The 5 minute rule is in to prevent "oh we're losing, if I d/c, my team can surrender".
I've won a few 4v5 games, but less than 10% of them.
I've never won a 3v5 game.

Also, 20 minute surrender timer on ARAM = total ****. I've seen 5v5 ARAMs end in under 12 minutes due to bad team comp balance. And those are blessed for ending so early - others drag on because the team playing Easy Mode doesn't want to end it - they want to drag the game on, but the losing team can't force the game to end til 20:00
D/Cs do happen and are legit. Not everyone is built with a steller computer, so of course they would need time to connect? You wouldn't be able to surrender, and ya would still have to go through the 20 minute mark. Honestly, I think the 20 minute rule is fine. It's just people are complaining thinking that 20 minutes is like 6 hours of their life. Nothing is wrong with just playing through the game and see how it goes. It also sorta hurts the 'honor/sportsman' thing and just play to the finish. No one likes winning from a surrender (least I don't).


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5ackLunch

Senior Member

10-30-2013

10 minutes, able to surrender, enemy team has option to accept or decline?

:P


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NaginataX

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Holy **** a Red posted! This makes the what...first in 3-4 months on this board? lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Sorry to hear you encountered so many leavers and ragers today.

The reason we go to 20 minutes is to ensure that people have complete games most of the time, and get to enjoy the various stages of the game, including the feeling of winning. At lower surrender times, we were concerned that people would throw in the towel for stuff like giving up first blood, losing first tower, etc. There are certainly situations where you can lose by 10 minutes, but they are fairly rare if you aren't at the pro level. So, we think 20 mins is a good balance.

- Zileas
I agree with Riot's stance on this (except for the comment about pro level). Anything less would encourage people to surrender and not only cheats the other team out of their enjoyment (albeit they still get a "win"), but also any team member that may disagree that giving FB = lost game. We all know it's possible to make a comeback due to a single bad play if the game goes long enough, and I don't feel that having the occasional leaver/afk/disconnect is reason enough to change the current system.

As-is, we already have enough toxic players that do the whole "GG surrender at 20" nonsense the second someone dies (or THEY die). Don't give these players what they want by allowing them to toss the game even earlier.

As for the "fairly rare if you aren't at the pro level", I feel that this mindset is in part what reinforces these player's opinion that a game CAN be determined within the first 10 minutes, if not sooner. Everyone likes to think they're pro and if Riot is making statements insinuating that a game CAN be determined early, regardless of level ranking and whether the statement itself is true or not...you're going to be encouraging people to give up early if the game is not going in their favor.


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Matthias9119

Senior Member

10-30-2013

It's rare for a game to be decided at <20 minutes if both teams are at full strength. I don't see a need for earlier surrenders than that.

If you have 2+ disconnected/AFK players I wouldn't mind an early surrender option (at, say, 10m, to give them a chance to reconnect). Those matches are pretty much a foregone conclusion.


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Espy Psyche

Senior Member

10-30-2013

Nobody would ever decline an enemy's opportunity to surrender.

I've lost far too many winnable games because of premature surrenders. We need to make surrender conditions harsher, not easier. For example, to surrender a game, you must have one of the following conditions met:

1) Enemy team has more than double your kills AND more than 25.
2) Enemy team has destroyed structures at least two tiers behind your farthest destroyed structure, OR the enemy team has destroyed 3+ structures more than your team.
3) Enemy team has more than double your team's combined gold, AND at least 20 minutes have passed. This condition no longer applies once three of the enemy players have Advanced or better items in all item slots.
4) Both of your team's nexus turrets are destroyed.
5) Your team has more players that have not taken a movement action, healing action or attacking action in the past 5 minutes than the opposing team. This condition no longer applies if your team has more kills, more destroyed structures, OR more overall gold than the opposing team.

1) This is the score at the top corner of the screen. Examples:
If the enemy team has 20 kills and your team has 8, you may NOT surrender.
If the enemy team has 25 kills and your team has 13, you may NOT surrender.
If the enemy team has 25 kills and your team has 12, you may surrender.

2) By a tier of structures, I mean the layers towers and inhibitors come in. Outer Turret < Inner Turret < Inhib Turret < Inhib < Nexus Turret < Nexus. So:
If your team has destroyed 0 turrets, enemy destruction of an Inner Turret allows surrender.
If your team has destroyed an Outer Turret, the enemy must have destroyed an Inhib Turret to allow surrender.
If your team has destroyed an Inner Turret, the enemy must have destroyed an Inhibitor to allow surrender (surrender still allowed if an inhibitor respawns, but not if you destroy an Inhib Turret).
If your team has destroyed an Inhib Turret, the enemy must have destroyed at least one Nexus Turret.
If your team has destroyed an Inhibitor (even if it respawns), this condition can never be met.

3) This condition is to allow surrenders based on unrecoverable creep score discrepancies. The Advanced item thing is because there is an absolute power cap in League of Legends. Once you have your "full build", you can't get any stronger based on gold. This means that once the enemy team has their full builds, they aren't getting stronger, but your team is getting stronger still. You catch up just by virtue of them being unable to advance further while your team continues to advance.

4) If your Nexus Turrets are down, the enemy can push your nexus so easily that it prevents your team from leaving the base.

5) This deals with AFK players. 4v5 games or 3v5 games are very difficult to win and in most cases impossible. It also blocks surrendering if your team is winning a 4v5 match.

The intent of my surrender rules is to allow games that are clearly lost to be surrendered, but prevents trolls from surrendering clearly salvageable games. In some cases, it even allows games to be surrendered earlier than normal when they are clearly unwinnable. It also prevents anyone from surrendering while ahead or while only slightly behind.


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