An Introduction to our support changes in preseason

First Riot Post
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Rhiljeryne

Senior Member

10-26-2013

With all these income changes, were there any concerns with artificially accelerating the game? For example certain champions or team compositions that function better mid to late game all of a sudden have the gold they need to reach certain power thresholds and bypass their early game weaknesses?


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

10-26-2013
22 of 22 Riot Posts

Rhiljeryne, yep, there's a reason we don't allow multiple multiplicative gold income items.


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Transairion

Senior Member

10-26-2013

Quote:
Rhiljeryne, yep, there's a reason we don't allow multiple multiplicative gold income items.
What is this reason exactly, apart from the obvious "the non support will stack it!" that always screws the support over.


Without any stacking gold generation items how does a behind support who's losing/lost lane get any gold? Carry can't farm to get gold, carry has no kills/assists the support can use...

Where does the losing support get gold from? I build all 3 gold generating items just so if the carry fails, I still get income from somewhere.


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DesolateCheez

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Senior Member

10-26-2013

The thing about kill lanes is that they drop off late-game, so you have to have a relatively high success lane to be relevant at all

Any marksman that gets through a laning phase without any kills but a decent amount of CS will provide a huge amount of DPS for a team with a huge amount of safety off the back of them being ranged champions


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Ionian StarChild

Senior Member

10-26-2013

Commendable effort for coming up with ways to make the support role a fun play experience for those that enjoy it. I guess my only concern is about those whose utility will be scaled off of AP? I know that you guys stated that the "traditional" supports are going to be the ones that will receive these changes. My question is what about those who are "secondary" supports? Like Lux, Morg, and Karma?


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Archadion

Senior Member

10-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transairion View Post
What is this reason exactly, apart from the obvious "the non support will stack it!" that always screws the support over.


Without any stacking gold generation items how does a behind support who's losing/lost lane get any gold? Carry can't farm to get gold, carry has no kills/assists the support can use...

Where does the losing support get gold from? I build all 3 gold generating items just so if the carry fails, I still get income from somewhere.
The reason for it was stated by Xelnath earlier in the thread.

"We originally did not have this limit. Then Madlife and H4ckerv2 came to the office and broke the game by having more gold than any other champion in the game by min-maxing the support items."

Each support gold item is going to be MUCH more powerful when it comes to earning gold. When items don't need to be balanced around each other for abuse cases, they can gain a lot of power. That's the problem with heals in the game. Either they're balanced around heal reduction from Ignite, or they're not. If they're balanced around heal reduction, they're overwhelming when the reduction isn't there. If they're balanced around full healing, then they're useless whenever heal reduction is applied.

If support items were balanced around a player building all three of them, then each individual item would feel weak to stop Supports having the most gold in any given game. If support items were balanced around a player building one of them, but with no limits to how many you can build, then they'd be strong normally and become completely overpowered whenever someone stacks more than one.


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FabulousJeremy

Senior Member

10-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
If we did this, it would look WEIRD.

Philo:
+hp regen
+mana regen
UNIQUE Passive - Scavenger: Get Gold from minion deaths.

(Purchasing Philosopher's Stone prevents Pickpocket and Lootshare items from working. The order of items purchased matters.)

That's an unwieldy and confusing tooltip. Locking out the items is far clearer.

Besides, there are NOT GOOD GAINS from stacking these items. They all provide regen stats. Woop. Stacking those into the midgame is not a smart plan.

Instead, by making them exclusive we can make the actives significantly sexier.
Different metas call for different strategies, the regen could be valuable depending on the situation. However, what players will really want are the actives.

I think it's silly to restrict builds based on simply a tool-tip. I also am not sure how well your current strategy will work, since it sounds like different types of supports will buy the different gold items and if one proves better than the rest a whole class of support is nerfed as a result. And this goes especially so for the actives. Notice how Shurelya's/Locket have been dominating item builds? All it takes is 1 stronger than average active being left alone and a whole class of supports is weak.


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Transairion

Senior Member

10-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
The reason for it was stated by Xelnath earlier in the thread.

"We originally did not have this limit. Then Madlife and H4ckerv2 came to the office and broke the game by having more gold than any other champion in the game by min-maxing the support items."

Each support gold item is going to be MUCH more powerful when it comes to earning gold. When items don't need to be balanced around each other for abuse cases, they can gain a lot of power. That's the problem with heals in the game. Either they're balanced around heal reduction from Ignite, or they're not. If they're balanced around heal reduction, they're overwhelming when the reduction isn't there. If they're balanced around full healing, then they're useless whenever heal reduction is applied.

If support items were balanced around a player building all three of them, then each individual item would feel weak to stop Supports having the most gold in any given game. If support items were balanced around a player building one of them, but with no limits to how many you can build, then they'd be strong normally and become completely overpowered whenever someone stacks more than one.

Except these support items are balanced around performing in an even and/or winning scenario. They next to non-functional when the carry is losing the lane and because they can't stack, then become worse than the current versions.

Quote:
"We originally did not have this limit. Then Madlife and H4ckerv2 came to the office and broke the game by having more gold than any other champion in the game by min-maxing the support items."
I have a feeling the chance Madlife and H4ckerv2 were actually playing support champs and "broke the game" by having too much gold is pretty low. More like people playing non-support champs rushed these items, and the actual supports get punished for it. Is having a 6 item support such an issue?

It was also stated that stacking the support items was a bad idea anyway:

Quote:
Besides, there are NOT GOOD GAINS from stacking these items. They all provide regen stats. Woop. Stacking those into the midgame is not a smart plan.
Isn't that the whole tradeoff of stacking gold items? You have next to no stats but are rolling in enough gold to actually build proper items? That's what I do when I support is the only way I can afford anything when the carry is outmatched by the other team's one.


At the moment the Preseason currently looks like an improvement if you're winning the lane or going even, but if you're losing the lane you'll be even further behind than present because you can't stack gold items to earn the gold you need.


All well and good if you're winning, but now I'll have even less gold to work with when losing. That isn't an improvement, that's a nerf and just makes snowballing even worse.


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Shattered Clock

Senior Member

10-26-2013

I...I finally get to build items when I support.

Xelnath, just take me now. Be gentle though.


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TimmyWimmyWooWoo

Senior Member

10-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennis4242 View Post
What about the support players who enjoyed the vision game you have completly shut them down and ruined their fun experience.
Play zyra. You get mini wards to go over the limit.
I hypothesize that supplemental vision will be very powerful after these changes.