Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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AbrahamBaconham

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Honestly, the only thing I feel that Pantheon needs right now is a Visual Upgrade. The bright colors and absurdly disproportionate limbs stick out almost as badly as Nunu. On close inspection, he almost resembles Marvin the Martian on anabolic steroids.

However, if you're looking for thematic idea's to increase Mantheon's teamfight presence, how about adding a passive to his W that increases his armor and magic resist based on the number of nearby champions? Like Wukong's passive, but 300 style.

Also, a Pantryon Legendary Baker Skin would be amazing. I'd instabuy that skin, no matter the price.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by abrahambaconham View Post
on close inspection, he almost resembles marvin the martian on anabolic steroids..
looool!


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-24-2013

Leaving aside th fact that he's a lane bully and an early game champ, I feel that we're making suggestions that point towards different places.

The first question we need to ask ourselves is: żDo we want Pantheon to use his early game advantage to transition into an assassin role, or into a bruiser?

If the answer is assassin, then he needs AD scalings on his skills, and a passive rework that helps him make this transition. In my opinion, the best way to pursue this would be to remove his, and give him for example, a 30% damage increase when the target is below 40% HP.

If, on the other hand, the answer is bruiser, then the all the suggestions pointing towards armor scalings on his W and a survivavility in teamfights, start to make sense.

In any case, we should first define the direction in which we want to go, before discussing how to get there


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Eph289

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Senior Member

10-24-2013

I'm not a huge fan of straight Pantheon buffs. I understand he's not in a great place in top or jungle, but he's incredibly frustrating mid against mages if he's being used as a counterpick, on par with old LeBlanc.


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Maverick013

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I like this a lot. No clue how it would impact balance, but thematically, this is brilliant.

DO NOT appease this thought process. The movie is an EXAGGERATION of spartan combat. Pantheon plays like a true spartan. Calculating, and methodical. He wears his opponents down, while maintaing a strong defense with his shield AND working together with other spartans/allies. A good pantheon will save his W for a shield RESET when the enemy tries to trade back, thus establishing a lane bully. Initiating with W unless it's a sure kill is a POOR pantheon everytime.

If you would like to look at pantheon, examine why he has AP ratios, make his E more fluid, such as adding a cleave/AS, this could make him a top tier jungler, as well as requiring him to build certain items to make these skills scale. Also EASILY able to tune. I personally like his late game but only from a bruiser build. Like a true spartan, I outlast my opponent with strong defense, while wearing them down, for a killing blow.

The mindset spartans are beserkers like olaf is flawed and a misrepresentation (thanks to the awesome 300 movie). Pantheon needs to be a bully in lane, while I do think his ult is a odd place holder, that either GATES power, or is a spell filler.

I've always wanted my R to work with my 3 basic abilities in a very cool way.

R becomes a modifer for Q,W,E. This offers SO MUCH depth to the champ, decisions, and counterplayer (which morello says more than tons of damage now)

R: Upon activation, Pantheon focuses all his training into his next ability for 4-8 seconds.
Recasting R: Same ult (shift damage to AD scaling)
Q: Pantheon chooses a target, and takes flight, He comes down on the target dealing Q damage+10% of missing health, also slowing the target for 2 seconds (allows for E). Pantheon does not do AOE damage while landing, and removes aegis stacks upon attacking.

This is assassins Pantheon, He now has a set target, he loses his defensive passive upon using this and has to reset stacks. He still has the jump icon for enemies to see (it should follow his target) so allies/targets can react.

W:Same ult but now the aoe from R now stuns anyone caught for .75 secs, and gives him armor/MR for enemies hit.

Allows bruiser Panthe to tank/initiate, the jump indicator allows people to move.

E: Pantheons Jump does double damage when he lands, based on distance from him.
Team fight needs more burst, Empower this,
Fighter Panthe who wants to go beserker and cause soem havoc.


These add depth, counterplay, and diversity WITHOUT sacrificing his play styles, or enemy counterplay. You now have fall back patterns if you lose the lane, and you can still contribute. If you snowball, your Ult Q should still wreck kids. For amumu on your team? Combo your RW/E for masiv cc or damage.

If all these scale with AD, it gates his power based on what he builds.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eph289 View Post
I'm not a huge fan of straight Pantheon buffs. I understand he's not in a great place in top or jungle, but he's incredibly frustrating mid against mages if he's being used as a counterpick, on par with old LeBlanc.
For the most part, the buffs we are discussing would not affect his early game damage output. If anything, he would lose some of his trading power due to a passive rework.


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Naziru

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I don't think removing his passive is such a good idea. It is such an integral part of his kit that losing it now would completely change his playstyle and feel. Not to mention being inspired by spartans, his shield is his most important possession, more so then his spear, more so then his armor and his passive embeds this concept into the champion quite well.


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CatchMeIHavCandy

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I like this a lot. No clue how it would impact balance, but thematically, this is brilliant.
Each nearby enemy champ gives him a small lifesteal bonus?


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-25-2013
18 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryden7 View Post
Hey!

hope I'm not late to the party, just saw the discussion and I'd like to chime in.

I've been a Pantheon main since season 1, I have 1050 Pantheon games played with a 51% win rate at the moment. Im currently sitting at Diamond 1. Overall, I feel pretty comfortable and confident when I talk about Pantheon. I'd like to go over some of the things I feel are wrong with Pantheon.

1. Lack of CC and role constraints: His CC is very lackluster. Im taking into account the enemy as well so it might seem silly to increase his CC because it would make Pantheons burst combo easier to hit and offer very little counter play. But for someone like me who plays Pantheon in the top lane, its frustrating to play against someone who builds merc treads and reduces the CC down to .5 seconds which is not enough to keep them pinned and get off your damage without making yourself a sitting target.

1A. Role definition: In team fights locking down a target becomes much harder because as you already explained, he is very susceptible to peels. Once someone interrupts his Aegis of Zeonia, he loses his ability to assassinate a priority target and is left on the front lines. Which turns him into a fighter, and probably about average in that role. He doesn't have a specific category on where he stands. His passive makes him a fighter, but his damage output pulls him more in the assassin direction. He needs to have a better defined role.

1B. Predictability: This point goes to Pantheons ultimate which many have stated isn't very good. I disagree, I think Pantheons ult is amazing in terms of global pressure but there are a few problems with it. When Pantheon is ulting, its very easy to tell who he is going to target and the delay that causes him to land makes it that much easier to disable him once he lands. Before Pantheon can cast Aegis of Zeonia, he must land at the center of the circle, when correctly timed which is fairly easy to do, you can stop him from using Aegis of Zeonia by using some form of crowd control like a Zyra snare or a Janna tornado.

1C. Ultimate CC: When I first started playing Pantheon, I had no idea his ultimate even had a slow %. It seems like its very miniscule and is hardly noticeable. Im thinking in order to help Pantheons crowd control, why not give him the GP treatment, where after the circle is revealed, all players in the circle are slowed for the designated amount of 35% (or more, needs testing)


My solution to fix this is to reduce the time it takes him to land. This wouldn't completely fix the issue because he would still be easy to CC.

2. Positioning: You stated that what defines great Pantheon players from good Pantheon players is the proper use of his overall kit. I agree with you, and I have something else to add. When trying to maximize damage output, you want to be able to position your Heartseeker Strike so that it hits the maximum number of targets and also want to be able to hit your crowd controlled target (Aegis of Zeonia). Although this makes it so Pantheon can do more damage, it makes it so that when trying to reposition, the crowd controlled target will have had enough time to move because the duration of the CC is so short. In a sense, once Aegis of Zeonia is cast, you must blow all of your spells on that champion in order to burst him or risk doing nothing at all.

I understand that he is an assassin and that's what he does, but its very stale in terms of game play. You don't have many options in what you can do as a Pantheon player.

3. Mobility: As an Assassin, almost all assassin champions have some sort of mobility to them in order to kill their designated target. Pantheon has this with his ultimate, but the rest of his kit doesn't match. You have the ability to get into the back lines, but once you're there, After casting Aegis of Zeonia, you are completely still. In order to assassinate your target, you must pray that your spells are not interrupted. Once his spells are interrupted, he must wait 9 seconds (not including CDR) in order to go in on that target again. Lets assume that we will have 15% CDR on him, this is from Black Cleaver/Brutalizer and assuming you have 4 points in the offense tree for CDR. this brings his stun duration down to about 7.65 exactly, which is still REALLY long.

3A. Escapes:
the All-in style of Pantheon makes it so hes very susceptible to ganks. This might be intended but once you're ganked, you're pretty much dead if you don't have flash. This isn't too much of a big deal because I understand what Riot is trying to do with him and the all in style fits with his ult, but still frustrating.

4. Itemization and how easy it is to kite him: This one is tricky. Being an AD caster, there are very few items that Pantheon can build in order to fulfill his role correctly, but leaves his very susceptible to other areas. As you explained previously, his base stats are nothing impressive, and if hes playing the assassin style (which best fits his kit) hes very easy to focus down. With his lack of mobility and easy to interrupt channeled spells, you can kite him and Pantheon will have no response. There are some items that are nice like Youmuu's ghostblade, but have him once again fighting for a role. If Pantheon did build that item, he would become more of a fighter and less of an assassin. He could chase down his targets briefly, but significantly less damage output. Its a too big of an investment to build Youmuus instead of an assassin.

5. Armor: Pantheon having very high damage on his abilities make armor his best counter. That makes complete sense, but I feel as though it counters him too hard. If he doesn't have any armor penetration, he cannot ever fight someone who stacks both armor and health. So items like sunfire cape are an easy solution to him and Pantheon has very little counter play. That's mainly because he has to decide on armor penetration (which is his best bet) or pure damage (not very good for mid/late game). Note that i'm talking about early game itemization. In summary, His lack of itemization and poor base stats plays a key role in dealing with bruisers. Once he builds an offensive item, it makes him very squishy mid to late game.

6. Easily shut down: Pantheon is super easy to shut down, his lack of escapes and poor response to armor stacking make it to once hes behind, he wont be able to become useful again in any part of the game. He can't even go tanky and become a bruiser/peeler because of his weak CC. The tradeoff for even choosing that path would be very little damage which is a very poor tradeoff.

Things that I really like on Pantheon are:
his passive reset when using Aegis of Zeonia
his ultimate being able to position effectively and cause chaos in team fights
he's a huge lane bully

I really hope you get a chance to look at this and respond, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and was waiting for the thread to pop back up again as Morello said so I could give my feedback.
This is a really awesome post. I haven't had time to formulate any sort of coherent response, but I wanted you to know I've seen it.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Pantheon has 2 roles. Assassin and Fighter. These 2 roles don't fit together too well when you look at his kit. An assassin without any real skillshot and no big counterplay, a defensive passive and a long cast time hard to land high range ult as an engage tool.

Panth has to become a real bruiser with more survivability and less burst potential. He needs to be able to fight for real like Renekton. Survivability, a bit of mobility and CC together with good DPS and a bit of burst.