Future of Dominion: Chat with ManWolfAxeBoss

First Riot Post
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Golly

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
Yes, and there's plenty of counter examples too. Why isn't everyone playing swtor?
What a frustrating response. So you are saying that Dominion is analogous to swtor? Is this what people inside Riot are saying? A lot of people still play swtor. Why isn't EVERYONE playing it? Because even though it had a really great single player system in place it was essentially a WoW clone at end-game. It was boring PvE, and the same old thing PvP. Dominion is neither. And I don't think that the two can be compared simply because as someone who has played both, they aren't really comparable. But this proves the power of promotion. Even with it's mediocre end-game, it was super popular, and still enjoys quite a large playerbase.

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What happened to Pepsi clear? And so forth.
Again. Is this what Riot thinks of Dominion? As it's Pepsi clear? If so, just ****ing kill it and be done with it. At least Pepsi gave the effort and promoted clear. It ultimately failed, but it wasn't because of lack of promotion. Which is what is currently afflicting Dominion.

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We could go back and forth forever.
No, we really can't.

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But like I said in an earlier post, there is plenty that could be done for all of our alternate maps.
And now we know why. If you, who is supposed to be championing Dominion to Riot, thinks of Dominion as Riot Pepsi Clear, then we've lost before we've started.

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Again, I know that's a super lame, nebulous answer that no one wants to hear.
This, we can agree on.


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Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geryth View Post
What? Where was this ever talked about? It was my understanding that with the launch of dominion (famous for being "fast") Riot normalized all IP gains across all game modes, meaning that the IP earned at the end of the game was based on the amount of time spent in the game. Which means a 20 minute win in TT gave the exact same amount of IP for a 20 minute win in Dominion and for a 20 minute win in SR etc. (and the same for losses).

I remember nothing about IP being altered based on remaining nexus health, and if it is, that's a terrible terrible thing.
For a very long time. I think release. There used to also be a bonus IP system in place based on your score.

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Dominion has a special bonus that is given depending on how well your team did. The more hp your nexus has if you win the larger the bonus, the less hp their nexus has if you lose the larger your bonus.
I was some what wrong, maybe, if I'm reading that right.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Influence_Points


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Geryth

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LxLegend View Post
To be honest unlike the other maps Dominion doesn't communicate its nuances as well to other players through the layout of the map, placement of objectives, or death timers.

A seasoned SR player who has never played on Howling Abyss doesn't need to read a guide to understand ARAM or ADAM. Same goes for Twisted Treeline. They may need to read up on what champs are strong on that map and what the meta is but the objectives and underlying strategy is already known to them.

The same can't be said for Dominion. And while I'm talking about the objectives. Has anybody asked why in a king of the hill variant with two teams of five there are five separate primary objectives?
The exact same thing can be said about SR for players new to League of Legends. In SR the objectives are outer towers, inner towers, buff camps, dragon, baron, and of course the nexus. If you just run into a game of SR being completely new, without any knowledge about the "meta", people would describe the experience being too many things to do with no knowledge of when the best time to do those things are. They could guess about having a least one person in each lane, but how would they know about having a dedicated jungler? How would they know when and how to use jungle buffs? How would they know when to kill dragon or baron? How would they know what's more important when multiple objectives are available (ie. vulnerable inner turret vs. dragon up vs baron up etc.).

They know these things because of the information that's available to them. Or maybe they join a game before having any of this knowledge? Chances are any game they get in, even if it's their first, someone in the game will know and be able to guide them. They have readily available guides. Readily available streams. They have more accurate item suggestions. They have tutorials. They have champion tips while picking champions tailored towards SR play.

The reason is only because SR is more popular, and that's only because it came first. It's the path of least resistance. Gameplay has very little to do with it. Not saying that Dominion needs as much design work as it needs balance work (for some of the reasons you listed), but SR is only in a good place on those fronts because it's getting the attention and the work done, and Dominion is left by the way side to fester in it's imperfections.

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I'm sure there are people here who will say if you watch/read/play this Dominion will open up to you. But if I have to choose between getting better at SR or Dom I'm going to choose SR.
SR has the tools, the manpower, the community participation, and the money and work behind it to disseminate information to the new players, and comes in a package that is already well designed and balanced. Of course people are going to gravitate towards it. Also, since SR is what they know, and they CAN play ARAM or TT with SR knowledge and know pretty well what to do, that they try to do the same with Dominion and just end up failing. This is again because of a lack of knowledge that the SR player has (in-game or otherwise) to lead them through the meta, and it's the same with all 9 of the other players in the queue. I guess revive being a fantastic SS isn't good for it either, since it's considered troll in SR, that if someone who does know what to do, loses credibility to the SR sheeple when they get told to take revive. But I digress.

And Riot thinks that Dominion is unpopular because of "phases". I bet they focus grouped that from a bunch of SR players who played a few games at entry level elo. They think that the players made the choice to make Dominion unpopular, by preferring SR. That must mean Dominion as inherent game play flaws to them. So they attack it's design (which needs some work but I mean the whole king of the hill formula in general), specifically Morello recently about phases.

I haven't heard any Rioter makes serious comments about why Dominion is truly unpopular:

It has no ranked
It doesn't have a big enough playerbase to disseminate information to the low elo player, the meta isn't trickling down fast enough
Similar to above, there's not people streaming it 24 hours a day
Riot has no tutorial for it
Suggested items are woefully bad choices
Queue times for draft mode are astronomical because of an unchecked 8 month bug
Entry level elo is plagued with bots, afk's, and people who don't care because of the above

All of these things KILL it's first impression to people who try it. THAT'S why it's unpopular. Not because it's a king of the hill map with no phases.

And the argument that Dominion has no clear objectives is completely false and blinded, and holds no weight against SR. SR objectives are just as unclear, if not more so, than Dominion. The difference is that SR's meta has permeated through every elo level. Dominion's objectives are clear, cap towers, what's not clear is which ones to cap and when. And there's a simple meta algorithm for that too. It's just that it can't permeate to all the other elo levels like meta in SR can because of the volume of people playing; and the people who ARE playing actually care about it, vs. the general mentality of people playing low elo dominion games as "lol it's just dominion".

Give Dominion what it needs to be balanced
Give Dominion what it needs to be well-designed (make it clearer what to cap and when, give more meaningful secondary objectives)
Give Dominion some hype (market your own product)
Give Dominion ranked and build a competitive scene

Do these things, and Dominion will prosper. "It's fast, it's fun!" will have a new meaning when people realize how much more entertaining it is to watch. And it's experience and flow is different enough from SR that it can bring in a larger player base in general, for people who's cup of tea just isn't SR.

I just beg Riot, to please please don't turn Dominion into an SR variant, thinking that "laning phases" is what's going to make people play it. It really is a fantastic game mode, Riot just has to nurture it with more than MWAB.


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BuddhaRice

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by painkillar View Post
raise yo hype dongers dommers!!!!
༼ ل͟༼ ل͟༼ ل͟༼ ل͟ ༽ل͟ ༽ل͟ ༽YOU FORGOT TO COPY PASTERlNO THE DONGERINO༼ ل͟༼ ل͟༼ ل͟༼ ل͟ ༽ل͟ ༽


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JavaPlus

Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golly View Post
Again. Is this what Riot thinks of Dominion? As it's Pepsi clear? If so, just ****ing kill it and be done with it. At least Pepsi gave the effort and promoted clear. It ultimately failed, but it wasn't because of lack of promotion. Which is what is currently afflicting Dominion.
I think it's Pepsi Clear more of the...

http://www.fastcompany.com/60555/winging-it

"It was a tremendous learning experience. I still think it's the best idea I ever had, and the worst executed. A lot of times as a leader you think, "They don't get it; they don't see my vision." People were saying we should stop and address some issues along the way, and they were right. It would have been nice if I'd made sure the product tasted good. Once you have a great idea and you blow it, you don't get a chance to resurrect it."

(Offers void in Mexico, where it's really popular.)

When the first impression fails, it's hard to climb back out even with aggressive marketing. I agree that Riot didn't really do a good job at marketing Dominion to it's audience but I can counter that even with marketing, I highly doubt Dominion can escape the "Durrr What's Dominion"z "It's fast, It's fun" or "Only baddies play Dominion" phase. A lot of people don't realize it took years before MOBA took sail. Aeon of Strife was the first but DOTA was the ubertrope and LOL/DOTA 2 is the streamliner.

The players love DOTA because it was interesting despite being rather hard to learn at first, trust me, remember my first time and I still couldn't figure it out on my own and I was playing Warcraft 3 almost everyday at the time. In my opinion, Riot should try and differentiate or even make Dominion it's own. It's stuck being under the LOL title and overshadowed by an audience that doesn't appreciate the subtle ways that Dominion works and thus we're arguing over menial things and not realizing that the call up should be "Well what do you guys think Dominion could more accessible to new people?"

To be honest, we should not be like Japanese Video Game companies who cheapens it's audience for a quick buck. We should not be limiting ourselves to small niches and should try to expand and figure out how to get people to be interested. Just like how people rent houses don't rent houses looking like the same, we should fix Dominion, give it a fresh coat of paint and then we can talk about how to market the new and improve Dominion to everyone. In this state, it's just waiting for SR players to bash it and pull the generic "Screw Dominion, only Tri-Lanes(SR and DOTA) matters and nobody wants to see that."

I think Morello miscommunicated badly and didn't realize it until the Kalamandan Killer Bees were on him.


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ManWolfAxeBoss

QA Analyst

10-25-2013
6 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golly View Post
What a frustrating response. So you are saying that Dominion is analogous to swtor? Is this what people inside Riot are saying? A lot of people still play swtor. Why isn't EVERYONE playing it? Because even though it had a really great single player system in place it was essentially a WoW clone at end-game. It was boring PvE, and the same old thing PvP. Dominion is neither. And I don't think that the two can be compared simply because as someone who has played both, they aren't really comparable. But this proves the power of promotion. Even with it's mediocre end-game, it was super popular, and still enjoys quite a large playerbase.
No need to put words in my mouth. This was a counter example to the posts about the powers of marketing. Marketing undoubtedly helps, but it can't do everything. Additionally, come on dude. You know I don't feel that way.


There are quite a few posts expressing fear of me wanting to make Dominion more like Summoner's Rift. That isn't the case. This thread is just an analysis of why Dom may be less popular than SR, an inevitable point of comparison. Please don't read "reasons for lack of popularity" as "reasons why it's bad." Different is not bad, though I still think Dominion could be better.


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Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
No need to put words in my mouth. This was a counter example to the posts about the powers of marketing. Marketing undoubtedly helps, but it can't do everything. Additionally, come on dude. You know I don't feel that way.


There are quite a few posts expressing fear of me wanting to make Dominion more like Summoner's Rift. That isn't the case. This thread is just an analysis of why Dom may be less popular than SR, an inevitable point of comparison. Please don't read "reasons for lack of popularity" as "reasons why it's bad." Different is not bad, though I still think Dominion could be better.
Pretty sure most of us get that MWAB, no worries. Unfortunately you're sort of our Riot goto and as much as I don't like to admit this, we're probably rightfully mad at Riot in general, and possibly some specific Rioters so unfortunately you'll probably get the brunt of our frustration and anger that bleeds off when we talk about Dominion.

You're not among those.

Also, changes are scary especially when it involves something you love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8


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Geryth

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
This thread is just an analysis of why Dom may be less popular than SR, an inevitable point of comparison.
Why can't we ever get back and forth discussion on these points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geryth View Post
I haven't heard any Rioter makes serious comments about why Dominion is truly unpopular:

It has no ranked
It doesn't have a big enough playerbase to disseminate information to the low elo player, the meta isn't trickling down fast enough
Similar to above, there's not people streaming it 24 hours a day
Riot has no tutorial for it
Suggested items are woefully bad choices
Queue times for draft mode are astronomical because of an unchecked 8 month bug
Entry level elo is plagued with bots, afk's, and people who don't care because of the above

All of these things KILL it's first impression to people who try it. THAT'S why it's unpopular. Not because it's a king of the hill map with no phases.
Sure we can talk about why Dominion is unpopular. Why does it always gravitate towards some of the least-contributing things though?

Why isn't there tutorials for Dominion? No champions spotlights for Dominion? No discussion on RIOT's plans to help bring back draft mode that THEY killed? No talk about how to improve the low elo experience regarding bots and afk's?

These are serious issues that need attention that directly affect Dominion's popularity. What are you going to do about issues like that? Balance and design can be great, but as long as people keep having terrible experiences when they try Dominion, it's never going to grow.


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Crawler View Post
Pretty sure most of us get that MWAB, no worries. Unfortunately you're sort of our Riot goto and as much as I don't like to admit this, we're probably rightfully mad at Riot in general, and possibly some specific Rioters so unfortunately you'll probably get the brunt of our frustration and anger that bleeds off when we talk about Dominion.

You're not among those.

Also, changes are scary especially when it involves something you love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Crawler View Post
Pretty sure most of us get that MWAB, no worries. Unfortunately you're sort of our Riot goto and as much as I don't like to admit this, we're probably rightfully mad at Riot in general, and possibly some specific Rioters.

You're not among those.

Also, changes are scary especially when it involves something you love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8
Much this.

Also, as far as marketing Dominion goes, the main instances I can remember as a player are

1. Release
2. Putting dominatedominion as a featured stream
3. Frontpaging dominatedominion one time

3 was pretty successful at getting viewers if i recall. I haven't seen much of anything in the last year.

I am curious as to how the marketing of Dominion compares to that of SR (as far as money and human resources are concerned), and how the gains relative to the input compare.

Thank you very much MWAB, you are appreciated.


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IronAegis

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
No need to put words in my mouth. This was a counter example to the posts about the powers of marketing. Marketing undoubtedly helps, but it can't do everything. Additionally, come on dude. You know I don't feel that way.


There are quite a few posts expressing fear of me wanting to make Dominion more like Summoner's Rift. That isn't the case. This thread is just an analysis of why Dom may be less popular than SR, an inevitable point of comparison. Please don't read "reasons for lack of popularity" as "reasons why it's bad." Different is not bad, though I still think Dominion could be better.

Rather than go back and forth or delve into why we think Dominion is less popular, let's simplify it: What does Riot plan to do to help promote Dominion and bring more players into the mode? I should note that I don't mean this in a hostile tone, but rather I'm genuinely curious as to what, if any, plans are in place to keep the Dominion scene thriving.