SOS: Support Our Supports @Riot The Effects Of Season 4 Vision Changes In Low Elo

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-24-2013
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSV2 View Post
On a side note, can characters interact with trinkets like normal wards? E.g. Lee Sin ward jumping to a trinket?

Anyway, I personally like these changes as it allows supports to be able to build the items that they want, and maybe even AP if the situation calls for it.
Yes, trinket wards act just like normal wards (though some of their details vary a bit e.g. duration).

We do expect to see some supports (the ranged ones in particular) building a moderate amount of AP as a result of the upcoming changes and that's something we'll be working on their kits a bit to make a viable option (e.g. Do I want to go tanky support, grab a bunch of activatables, grab items to improve my utility etc).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yuniiee

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoram View Post
Well I'm liking these changes they are dynamic and fluid. While most people can now ward, I'm thinking that is a larger issue than supports. This one thing was revealed thus far, and I can't recall where but I could have sworn there was talk about giving supports power in ways other than warding and to scale in some way other than AP on spells.

So I think in time we will see supports get compensated for this loss of vision control but I can't say much since any information on that is still under wraps.
Besides, having less control over vision just by myself, I am quite excited about the concepts of having items on my supports for once

Currently it's
"I'm feeling a tad rich today, i might reward myself with tier 1 boots YAY" tier. Which is quite depressing really. My post was really about discussing what the effects might or might not be, I can't predict the future nor did I plan these changes. For the moment, I'm hoping that they DO benefit the game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

danksz

Senior Member

10-24-2013

yes there will be no vision in 90% of low elo games, just like there is now. the few and far between players who do ward are getting marginalized.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-25-2013
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuniiee View Post
Besides, having less control over vision just by myself, I am quite excited about the concepts of having items on my supports for once

Currently it's
"I'm feeling a tad rich today, i might reward myself with tier 1 boots YAY" tier. Which is quite depressing really. My post was really about discussing what the effects might or might not be, I can't predict the future nor did I plan these changes. For the moment, I'm hoping that they DO benefit the game.
Yeah, we're very much aiming to let supports be part of the item game (item choices, power progression through items etc). Ending the game with boots 1 and a sightstone because you spent all your gold on wards denies a lot of cool potential options for the support player and their team. We're confident that will benefit the game, since this is a big change there'll also be a bit of disruption/experimentation of course as players test out their options, we tweak the exact balance details on various champs etc.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

phatcat09

Senior Member

10-25-2013

I've always been against warding. I like to play dark games where exploring enemy territory was a maneuver that had to be handled with a high degree of tact and map awareness -- those with it were rewarded and those without were challenged to get better... Infiniwards has breed lazy people who don't bother to analyze their minimap.

It drives me nuts having to explain that when 5 people are MIA it's not a good idea to go exploring their side of the map alone, or that if the high damage lanes are missing they're likely taking objectives and instead of fooling around in lane your team should take advantage of the opportunity to kill them, but because a ward isn't there explicitly showing that they're there no one listens to your pings...even though there a multiple indicators that experience teaches.... indicating where they most likely are -- something people don't learn with infiniwarding... they rely on sight alone...

Being yelled at when they notice dragon is missing because they run past it even though you tried telling them something is occurring, but they refused to listen and say it would have happened if it was warded even though you were keeping track of it is sooooo annoying. Just because your map skills are lacking doesn't mean it's impossible.

Something tells me "burden of knowledge" was the excuse used for supporting this system...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zoram

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuniiee View Post
Besides, having less control over vision just by myself, I am quite excited about the concepts of having items on my supports for once

Currently it's
"I'm feeling a tad rich today, i might reward myself with tier 1 boots YAY" tier. Which is quite depressing really. My post was really about discussing what the effects might or might not be, I can't predict the future nor did I plan these changes. For the moment, I'm hoping that they DO benefit the game.
agreed I know how you feel and I'm not TOO worried and I honestly hate being a ward mule. It used to not be this bad but meta found supports warding is more valuable than most other items for the team.

However I just really hope the gold gain and items supports get are helpful. Philo-stone still has only one viable build option of the three it has which is awful. Mana manipulator is still rubbish too.

When it comes down to it, I think supports need the items and the income from gold over time from means other than last hitting, and I am anxious about how this issue will be solved, because that is what I am actually concerned about, less so the ward changes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yuniiee

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoram View Post
agreed I know how you feel and I'm not TOO worried and I honestly hate being a ward mule. It used to not be this bad but meta found supports warding is more valuable than most other items for the team.

However I just really hope the gold gain and items supports get are helpful. Philo-stone still has only one viable build option of the three it has which is awful. Mana manipulator is still rubbish too.

When it comes down to it, I think supports need the items and the income from gold over time from means other than last hitting, and I am anxious about how this issue will be solved, because that is what I am actually concerned about, less so the ward changes.
Ah yes, the 'ward mule' is such a way to describe it. It's okay if your team actually appreciates it, but when you've got the player who's like "wow wtf ward some more ****** ur the support do ur job", these mentalities are the sort I hate with a passion.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jarvan Krislov

Senior Member

10-25-2013

Is OP for real? The problem with supports not being able to carry well is the fact that they ward too much. I play a lot of support (especially when I smurf, because who loves supporting in Silver?) and I LOVE buying real items. When you are Alistar and that 400hp enemy marksman thinks they can kill you... wa-bam Q-W and they are toast. That is SUCH a satisfying feeling. Or when you chunk down the guy trying to kill your marksman... That is SUCH a satisfying feeling. Out-warding the other team is a separate problem of gold disparity between the two teams (supports with more gold from global objectives=more wards= better map control) and imo doing damage as a support >>>>>> better map control.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Splinterheart

Senior Member

10-25-2013

I know this is about supports, but as you mentioned, Lee Sin can jump to trinket wards. Doesn't this mean Lee, Kat and Jax all have free jumps/flashes from the beginning till end of the game? ;_;
I think maybe you should provide exceptions and remove said champions' interactions with trinket wards.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

chinashop bull

Senior Member

10-25-2013

I scared. Because I like support how it is, it's going to be a bummer being a hobbled AP carry. I don't see how it fixes the problem for the 'i wanna shoot something' crowd, because they'll still try and be a real carry with less gold. Meanwhile if you like strategy over the tactics, you like to be the guy with the vision, you can't be, you be 120 AP sona, not quite killing dudes.

Did riot not just say with their team-matching system that there are enough people who like support? why they got to take our 'fantasy' away and give us half the carry fantasy instead.

..and we all know what this 'scaling utility' kit rework stuff is going to be about, adding ratios to CC duration and stuff like that, which of course means they have to drop the bases. no more early game support powah.