Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-24-2013

Scruffy- You still haven't answered my question, which should be the most important question of the rework: Why pick Skarner over the viable junglers? What does he bring that Zac, Aatrox, Elise, Jarvan, Lee, etc. can't? If you can't answer that question, then he's not viable.

Tweaking a shield by 5 won't change that. You're hosing his sticktuitiveness, taking away his heal, his immediate move speed, his immediate attack speed, and giving back what exactly? This rework. is. making. him. worse.

His CC is worse. His dueling is worse. His gap closing is worse. And he sucked to begin with since the nerfs owned him.

Riot has this terrible, awful, horrid idea that you should have counterplay if melee can catch up to you and start to stick to you? Why? Isn't that the reward for playing melee? They already start off at a huge disadvantage to ranged, and then this idiotic idea of "counterplaying" melee's one positive attribute took off. If a melee with no gap closer goes after you, and gets to you, you should lose. It's the reward for being melee. It's the same way a skill shot should do more damage than a straight cast. If you choose a more difficult path, with more risks, you should be rewarded for it, or else why not take easy mode?


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A2ZOMG

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10-24-2013

Technically, the reason to pick Skarner over any of those junglers is the fact he's scarier in straight up duels.

And wtf? His dueling is strictly better. He's less easily outmaneuvered due to line of sight issues, and his steroids are considerably less conditional. MORE IMPORTANTLY, his clearing got a LOT safer, which is the primary reason he isn't viable right now. In theory, Skarner crushes a lot of jungle matchups, and he's still by far one of the scariest junglers to get counter ganked by given his top tier dueling status. But he rarely gets to really apply his dueling IN THE JUNGLE currently due to cooldown nerfs to his shield which hurt the safety of his jungle clear.

Updated Skarner not only has existent kiting options, he is a lot healthier during jungle clears and clears much faster. That alone is worth it if you ask me.


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messymike

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10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2ZOMG View Post
MORE IMPORTANTLY, his clearing got a LOT safer, which is the primary reason he isn't viable right now.
Its actually due to all of the nerfs that riot hit him with last year. They nerfed his ultimate so you can flash out of it, they nerfed his mana costs on an already mana starved champion, they nerfed his shields CD.

Fixing his mana costs and ult alone would put him back into play. Doing other QoL fixes like being allowed to continue moving while casting E would be glorious. Quite frankly the champion coming out of the rework is no longer skarner, the only thing I see remaining from the original is his ultimate.


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A2ZOMG

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10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by messymike View Post
Its actually due to all of the nerfs that riot hit him with last year. They nerfed his ultimate so you can flash out of it, they nerfed his mana costs on an already mana starved champion, they nerfed his shields CD.

Fixing his mana costs and ult alone would put him back into play. Doing other QoL fixes like being allowed to continue moving while casting E would be glorious. Quite frankly the champion coming out of the rework is no longer skarner, the only thing I see remaining from the original is his ultimate.
I'm not sure how you call the champion from this rework not Skarner. He's still a top tier duelist jungler that trades mobility for utility and damage. That is what Skarner is on live, and that is what the new Skarner still is.

The ultimate nerf sure, it's lame, but didn't really hurt his ganking which auto-forced flashes anyway. What more hurt Skarner was the nerf to his shield, which make it considerably more difficult to clear the jungle with reasonable health. Again, the PRIMARY reason Skarner is not viable right now is because his jungle clear is not safe enough. Red start is super risky for him due to mana costs, and his health sustain early is poor. These are problems that are resolved with both the new Q and W, so ultimately that alone makes the rework a buff by actually making Skarner more usable in the jungle.

The main thing Skarner loses out on slightly in his rework is ganking honestly, and it's not like it's even all bad news. Yeah, not having a permaslow makes his ganking less destructive, but having a long ranged slow means you can now initiate ganks from more positions. So his ganking is weaker yes, but it's more applicable.


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venomxl

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10-24-2013

I want post-release buff S2 Skarner back. I'd be happy if they just gave that back. He worked fine- he was blue dependent, and was very kiteable, but he worked as intended, he chased you down relentlessly, and once he got you, you died. Just like a monster should. That Skarner was OP, but given the mobility creep, I honestly think he'd be fine today.


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Soda4Matt

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I really like this update, yea i havent played him as much as some of the others here, and before i randomly decided to buy him one day because he was underplayed, so i just wanted to try him out, i found i really liked his kit.
1. Sure i am saddended that he no longer has perma slow on his q but now i can catch up to people with e
2.i like how his q has his attack speed buff. now i dont have to waste an escape(w) to benefit from it. or lose it right away in a fight where its gone in a second.
3. i have never really had problems with his ult not going off because of flash, mebe like once or twice. but i do like this change to root them in place.
4. BATTLE CAST SKARNER PLOX INSTABUY FOR ME
SCRUFFY PLZ


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saveskarner

Junior Member

10-24-2013

Please dont do this. Its nice that you are trying to fix underplayed champions, but these changes are destroying skarners identity and turning him into something far less unique.

Skarner became my first main just as i stared playing ranked. He almost single-handedly took me to platinum in season 2 in EU east, and only reason i stopped playing him was because of all the indirect nerf that made him subpar.
When i saw that skarner was getting a rework i got exited and was really positive to it. Skarner just needed a small push like sejuani got and he would be really good and not completely outshined by other junglers.
However, my enthusiasm was quickly put out when i saw that the slow from his Q was going to be removed. I decided to make a account on north America so i could post this (i also had to level that account to lv5 before i was even allowed to post this, which meant i had to spend the entire evening leveling)

Unless you can rework skarner in such a way that he feels like the same champion, please leave him as he is since you might as well just release a new champion with your ideas.
If you still want to rework skarner, heres the insight from someone who fell in love with the feel skarner had, mastered his gameplay and showed the competitive side of the game what the hugely underplayed skarner could do (yes, he wasent even played much back when he was strong).

Q: The slow have to stay, a decent slow with short cooldown is what skarner is all about. And about permaslow being unfun, letting a darius into melee range wont even let you run away since you will be dead after approx 2sec (just a example that being punished with a permaslow for letting skarner get into melee range is not even close to what other champs will do).
You could change the cooldown if you want and the slow dont have to be permanent, but the slow must be powerfull for its duration and the cooldown must be short.

W: Aslong as its a shield with a move speed buff on it, you can do whatever you want with this skill. I would prefer to lose something when the shield goes down to leave some room for counter play (preferable the move speed boost is lost).

E: Theres nothing fun about this skill as jungle skarner so do whatever you want with it, but as i understand it, theres some players who love this skill while laning. I think you have to decide if skarner should be a dedicated jungler or not. As i jungler, i would like this skill to be replaced by another skill, some kind of poison or burrow skill since it would fit skarner well. Ill give two examples later.

R: The PBE version is PERFECT. The root wont allow anyone to flash removing alot of annoyance from skarner players, and skarners targets wont burn flash for nothing either.

Ideas for new E skill:
Burrow: cooldown:60/50/40/30/20 Skarner moves beneath the surface for 7sec, becoming untargetable and cant be seen on the minimap. Enemies can see dirt moving at skarners current location and can force him to unburrow by standing on top of him for 1,5sec. manacost: 100/85/70/55/40.

Skarner can move past wards with this skill when he is ganking and get closer to his targets before they notice him (shaco will still be way better at this and dont have huge costs for this). Later on he can avoid skill shots with it while escaping or intiating (tanks can step on him to protect their teammates).


Sting: Skarner stings his target with his tail, stunning his target for 0,5sec and poisoning it dealing 40/50/60/70/80(+0.3 per ap) magic damage and adding a DoT to the target dealing 1/1,5/2/2,5/3(1%per100ap)%(magic damage) of the targets hp/sec for 2sec, the duration can be reset by skarners autoattacks up to a maximum for 6 sec extra duration. If skarner get a kill with the burst damage of this ability, he gains 50/75/100/125/150hp and the cooldown is halved. range:350 cooldown:18/16/14/12/10 manacost:50/55/60/65/70.

This ability would improve skarners single target jungleing, retaining his heal mechanism(but sacrificing the abilitys damage by doing so)and improving on the concept of skarner being a melee restricted terror in extended fights. Please note that skarner have to autoattack his target atleast once every 2sec for the poison to stay active, alowing counterplay with dashes/blinks/hard CC/strong slows to stop the posion just like you deal with his "perma slow", improving on skarners niche.


The last thing i want to address is skarners passive. If skarner is getting a remake, his passive should probably get a rework.
Due to skarners passive, you want to build attackspeed and cooldown reduction on top of health, armor, magic resist, movement speed and sheen items. Skarner needs to many types of stats in my opinion and i think he would be more stabile with a passive that dont affect cooldown reduction.
However, if skarners passive to changed into something else, his Q cooldown still need to be reduced by his autoattacks, but that part can easily be added into his Q.
I think it would be best if skarners passive was some kind of short duration buff from autoattacks, like move speed, attackspeed, mana regen or something else.

Thanks for taking your time reading, i hope my post has some kind of effect on keeping the spirit of skarner.
"We await our time."

TL;DR: Dont ruin skarners identity or dont remake him at all. Skarner should be melee based and have a short cooldown slow. Skarners E is the primary thing about skarner that should be reworked and his passive should be second in line for rework. The change to R is perfect though.


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A2ZOMG

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Senior Member

10-24-2013

I'm going to mention this because I am almost certain that nobody on the design team considered this.

The changes to Skarner's Q and W are very objectively a nerf to his ability to push towers and structures.

Obviously this is not really relevant to design concepts around Skarner, but rather in comparing his power level to other junglers like Jarvan, Aatrox, and even Elise, it's worth noting that their steroids remain practical for pushing structures, whereas Skarner gets nothing if he does not have creeps to attack.

I don't necessarily expect changes with direct regards to this, but if there is anything I would like a response on, I would most appreciate hearing what the design team thinks about this.


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WuteverEU

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2ZOMG View Post
Technically, the reason to pick Skarner over any of those junglers is the fact he's scarier in straight up duels.

And wtf? His dueling is strictly better. He's less easily outmaneuvered due to line of sight issues, and his steroids are considerably less conditional. MORE IMPORTANTLY, his clearing got a LOT safer, which is the primary reason he isn't viable right now. In theory, Skarner crushes a lot of jungle matchups, and he's still by far one of the scariest junglers to get counter ganked by given his top tier dueling status. But he rarely gets to really apply his dueling IN THE JUNGLE currently due to cooldown nerfs to his shield which hurt the safety of his jungle clear.

Updated Skarner not only has existent kiting options, he is a lot healthier during jungle clears and clears much faster. That alone is worth it if you ask me.
The reason why Skarner is f*cking terrifying in a duel (sh*t, he's terrifying in a 1v2 at times) is because:
1. he has high sustained DPS
2. hes durable
3. you can't run away if you lose

2. and 3. just got a massive hit and 1. got a marginal buff.

How is he in any way better when you can just walk off when he catches you in the middle of nowhere?

Edit: Also, it wasn't just the nerfs that made him disappear. The entire game turned against him in S3. Nerfs to his skills, jungle changes, item changes, like 5 new junglers with hard CC and gapclosers at level 1 - 3, more gapclosers.

Like many here said: why get Skarner who needs ramp-up time and doesn't have a dash nor early hard CC when you can just get Elise, Zac, Aatrox, J4, Amumu, Lee, heck, even Sejuani and Naut, who are barely used?

He needs a niche, and right now his niche is that he rapes everything he actually gets his claws on for 2 seconds. Not after the remake tho. After the remake he's just "that jungler with sh*tty ganks and a suppression ult". We already have that - it's called Warwick.


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A2ZOMG

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10-24-2013

There's a lot of junglers that can outmaneuver Skarner despite losing to him in duels. Lee Sin, Evelyn, Jarvan, Elise, and Vi all have ways to escape Skarner even though they can't usually fight him directly. Only bad junglers can't run from Skarner.

I don't know where you get that Skarner's durability got any worse. The fact that he clears a lot faster combined with the values on his shield alone mean that Skarner is much more likely to be able to pick fights at high health because he takes a lot less damage from camps, and FURTHERMORE he needs fewer ranks of it for a sustainable clear, which is important to note given Skarner is essentially now working with 3 legitimate abilities. And while he does lose out on a permaslow against bad junglers (you get one anyway from Red Buff), his E gives him more options for chasing, poking, and kiting through the fog of war, giving him more positioning options.