An Introduction to our vision changes in preseason

First Riot Post
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LUS Montplaisir

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I have a few immediate issues with the new system.
My first (and biggest) issue is the indirect Buff to Stealthed Units. Any unit that relies on Stealth as a mechanic just got buffed big time by the removal of the invisible Pink Wards. Evelynn will be a gigantic problem now, specifically because that Permanent Pink is completely visible. She can eliminate it and come back, at pretty much any point and destroy somebody. Shaco, Kha'Zix, and Twitch are all going to be buffed in the same way by it. Really the only way that this becomes okay is IF there's a new health system for these new wards; regeneration or something like that, so that contesting their destruction becomes worthwhile as an individual in the Early game.
My second issue is that this didn't come sooner :P I actually really enjoy the theoretical aspects of the new system (With the exception of what was previously stated). A lot of the more unconventional Supports just became much more viable, and Supporting in general just became much more fun


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

10-24-2013
9 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
How does this improve the already existing support earlygame?

It's still wards+pots+cheapitem right?

Is sightstone such an improved item that you don't feel weak and dedicated to warding by rush-buying it?

Do you feel like you should buy something other than sightstone or similar ward-support (like gold generation) as a support?
This is a great topic that I happen to be working on, but not ready to talk about yet.


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Totallity

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EspeonageTieler View Post
but 3 wards just is not enough to keep vision
That is the point of this. They want more then just the support to ward. It will now be forced onto other lanes to support. It should make for a much more interesting game now and more strategy.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
This is the intended result. If you have sightstone, you should no longer feel the need to buy green wards again. Period.
So, since supports can just get this to solve all their warding needs, does that mean that technically they'll usually be buying the LEAST amount of wards in the game?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PubME View Post
There's no excuse not to drop wards.
There certainly is: "I need damage items more."

"Warding is your job, shame they nerfed your ability to do it, take CV next time."

No matter how much you claim a discussion of wards isn't relevant to the Support role (who buys most of the wards), you'll still be wrong.

Wards and supports go hand in hand now.

And improving supports in general, may improve the 'vision' system they interact with.

Basically: you can't ignore one part of the game completely if you're discussing the whole game.


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FlynnOFlenniken

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Now this is some cool stuff. I'm seeing some cool new dynamics happening next season.

I always thought it was irritating how a winning team would have vision of the entire map, and a losing team was stuck hiding in base since the enemy team would spot their every move if they tried to leave base and clear wards or place wards.

Now it's looking like a winning team will still likely have the vision advantage (as they should), but it won't be so overbearing that the losing team has zero chance of finding or creating an opportunity for a turnaround.

I can't wait to watch competitive games next season! It's gonna be exciting!


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noraver View Post
That all sounds great, but really Xelnath, you know exactly who's going to take what.

Top: Ward
Jungle: Sweeper
Middle: Ward/Mini CV
ADCarry: Mini CV
Support: Forced into taking the ward for early game

Eh I disagree with your prediction.

I think, initially, it'll be wards on everyone as they get used to it. With sweeper on jungle being common showing up within like a day. During this initial period mini CV will likely be very underestimated. From there I can see your predictions (with CV being less common) being the next phase. Though the ability to swap trinkets being key to diversity and likely something better players gronk earlier and trickles down to lower leagues.

Consider a Blitz bot. Maybe you start Ward for that initial level 1. Then swap Sweeper so you can take control of bot lane brush more consistently. Maybe you drop sweeper moving into late game for Mini-CV so you can raise the chances of a lucky jungle grab over the wall sealing the game.

I also see AD Carries grabbing Ward way more then Support. Support players will be going for sightstone and buying wards. It'd be redundant to have the free one when they could have CV or sweeper for WARD WARS!

Overall I predict that players looking to just farm safely will carry ward trinket as it would have the highest uptime. That is regardless of role. I also predict players looking to gank to switch to sweeper and/or CV.

Consider a Jungler. Maybe they are planning a farm route with no ganks on the first clear. So they take the ward Trinket to help safeguard their buffs. On first back they switch out to CV because they want to invade and CV will let them keep track of the enemy jungler from greater safety. Maybe they plan to sneak a dragon after base and grab the sweeper trinket to check for wards near dragon.


There is also a lack of consideration to botlane being two trinkets. Why not both ward? Or both sweeper if an aggressive lane? Imagine Panth+Leona with double sweeper bot just waiting in brush at level 1? Throw in 1 vision ward and that's some all-in brush control. Maybe both CV with Support buying wards and using the mini-clairvoyance to engage on bush camping enemy.


If it was one trinket per match I think there may be stagnation, but there is very little reason not to adjust trinkets based on what you are going to be doing regardless of lane placement.


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WuffleWuffle

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I'm pretty excited about these changes. But it does seem there will be less vision on the map overall.
I'm hoping to see more mastery/rune pages as well this season because of all the changes coming up, to allow us to experience more diversity.

As a side note - any invisible jungler (esp. Eve) is going to be stronger for these changes.


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Cypherous

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFoe View Post
That's the intended result.

If the new system allows for one player to manage the vision needs of an entire team, Support will be forced into that role and support will return to spending all their income on wards.

Efficient use of income means money goes to ADC > Mid/Top > Jungler > Support. If there's any way for a cost to be borne by someone further down the chain than the ADC, teams will gravitate towards that solution and it will establish itself in the meta.

The new system cannot allow one player to control an entire map for vision. Vision will now be something an entire team coordinates to control. That's an intended change, and a necessary way for Support to be a more interesting and fulfilling role to play for most players.
I main support, i have zero issues with the way it currently works and regularly walk around with stacks of 5 greens and 5 pinks, the cost doesn't bother me in the least, i can still buy the items i "need" without sacrificing on wards, what exactly is it that you're trying to buy that you need :P


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Sageoffire

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
This is the intended result. If you have sightstone, you should no longer feel the need to buy green wards again. Period.
Could I ask you look into changing the sightstone around a bit then?


I dont mind the limit on wards at all, what i DO mind is that all the wards share the same limit. I like being able to have a sightstone for spamming wards when i need to spam a ward, and a few normal wards to place in places that i deem more important.

as it is now, i can ward dragon with a sight ward, and then place as many wards as i want with sightstone and i wont have to worry about replacing the ward on dragon. sightstone is for strategic placement, individual wards are for places i want to keep vision.

with the changes, it seems like, "if i ward dragon, i can only realistically place 2 wards for the next 3 minutes" which SUCKS. i ask again... PLEASE consider bumping the limit to 4, and have sightstone and bought wards not count on the same ward limit

If not that, maybe nerf sightstone and adjust the cost. let it have 2 wards max that are independent from the limit on all wards?

does this make sense what im concerned about at least?