Future of Dominion: Chat with ManWolfAxeBoss

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Golly

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle37 View Post
I don't get why the lack of phase is seen as a problem. This is the typical mentality and only one possible that leads to this:

SR is popular and has phases--> Dominion isn't as popular and doesn't have phases --> Lacks of phases determines how popular a MOBA is.
This is an apt description of what is going on.


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Basoosh

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Bottom line - Dominion needs something big at this point. So many LOL players have already formed sour opinions of the game mode. As great of a gesture as they may be, changing items and champion balance around is not going to get those players back. The only way you're ever going to get those players back is a re-launch or a ranked queue. So my question to MWAB: Is Riot willing to do either of those? Are those things on the table?


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isysar View Post
Chavez Obama! I remember you playing tons of Warwick in tournaments. Were you on +5? I can't remember. . . You were a pleasure to watch.

Thanks, I used to play on Cheese. Glad I provided entertainment. Wish I knew then what I know now about how to improve.

I had a draft written up about dominion's status. I will have to get that finalized and modified to post with these recent events.

A quick summary though, my thoughts are that the jolt that will bring dominion (back) to life has to be something from publicizing the game mode. Tweaks and balancing and reworking the mode are great, and will help emphasize the ongoing success of the mode once it has been brought back into the public eye. It will keep the population from dwindling, and instead, people will embrace a balanced and fun mode.

But, there will be no people unless Dominion is brought into the public eye.


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Romann

Member

10-24-2013

I totally agree


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Luninareph

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I don't want to sound stupidly optimistic, but I don't think that adding laning phases and such to Dom is what the reds - even Morello - are referring to by saying Dom needs clearer objectives and a less flat experience. MWAB's ruminations on improving this area in his first post, after all, were "reworking the quest system and adding a meaningful objective mid-map."

I think the real thing they want, plain and simple, is just to increase the satisfaction you get out of completing the objectives in Dom. It might be as simple as having the number of points that are getting taken off the enemy Nexus when you get a champion kill flashing up dramatically on your screen, to really tie home the fact that yes, you got a kill and yes, it meant something to the game as a whole. That's a completely superficial change in the grand scheme of things, but it would help people just getting into Dom understand what's going on better and help define the "below 100 points" endgame phase better by virtue of its absence. It would also help SR-mains who need that confirmation that their kills made a difference when there isn't obvious lane freedom to give them that validation instead.

If they can do things to increase the satisfaction for players when they successfully perform the currently-not-always-clear objectives of Dom, they will be able to help newbies and SR-mains understand the mode better and enjoy it more. That will help Dom's popularity and keep people interested in it if they start pushing the PR on it again. Which, obviously, I hope they do.

Dom is far and away my favorite game mode in LoL. I do not like SR very much at all and in fact generally refuse to play human SR whatsoever. But frankly, I think the idea of more clearly defining Dominion's different phases and objectives is a great idea, even in silly ways like my aforementioned "dramatic point banner" idea, and I'd like to see it happen (and making Storm Shield and quests more impactful and satisfying to get would be nice, considering how unimportant they feel at present, at least IMO). Such changes could go a long way toward refuting common ignorance about Dom, i.e. "All-bruiser team = GG", "Lost Windmill = GG", "Only ten champs viable in Dom". That WOULD help bring in new Dom players. I really believe that.

So, um, I guess, in the end, I think we should be taking the fact that these possibilities are on the table as a good thing, not a herald of homogenization between Dom and SR? Here's hoping that Dom gets the attention and recognition it deserves in the near-as-possible future :3


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Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

10-24-2013

No they're speaking more towards tangible rewards.

I'll add some for instances as a SR player likely feels them.

Death timers and kills don't feel rewarding.

Consistent outplaying doesn't snowball as hard and this isn't felt as much.

Quests feel lacklustre.

Mid feels lacklustre.


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Torenia

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
Let's clear some things up.

These are my personal thoughts in regards to Dominion's lack of popularity relative to Summoner's Rift. I think the lack of phases turns a lot of people off and I believe that's what Morello was referring to when he said "flattened." In both game modes, winning is the obvious goal, but how you do it never really evolves in Dom the way it does in SR. In Dom you rush to the point and hold the point. There are no other meaningful secondary objectives (I'm obviously over-simplifying things so don't be upset here). The quests and stormshields never become focal points. In SR you have a laning phase that evolves into skirmishes over Dragon. Laning eventually completely disappears and is replaced by 5v5 team fights over baron and other objectives. There are clear transitions that empower players in ways that Dom does not.

This is my analysis.

As for future Dominion changes, I just want to make it crystal clear that those are all just conceptual. I think solving some of the phasing issues could be one by reworking the quest system and adding a meaningful objective mid-map. Again, CONCEPTUAL.

Stormshield is a cool buff, but the objective itself is lacking. Best case scenario is "you got a buff." Worst case is "you got picked and died." Sometimes you fight over it, but rarely. It's not very compelling.

CDR enchant has been finished, but I'm still not sold on Dom needing it. It's open for discussion.

This was hastily written and probably convoluted. Apologies. Will hopefully have a better response later.
The thing is some players play Dominion to not be forced to do a molasses turtle fest of laning with the occasional poke. The soccer analogy is great but another I can use is comparing SFIV (poke, turtling, openings) for SR vs something more aggressive with openings involved (MvC/TvC titles) for Dominion. I came to Dominion because it was faster and more action packed.

Certainly creating better objectives is a nice way because the quests are nonexistant to me at this point. The storm buff is neat but I don't know if I want a Baron/Vilemaw style buff to fight over because the concept of back and forth control of the map even when very behind is exciting instead of "hopeless" (especially if they are ahead AND get the buff).

Also, which is very important, is there is very little converage of this map by Riot themselves. No rank, no news of Dominion for the longest time prior to Nome (and partly during his reign), removal of Dominion related stuff in the Champion Spotlights, Nome's leaving, no bigger comments by Riot regarding DD and all the tournaments involved etc, ZERO way for us to get seasonal awards EVERY year forcing us to make SR/TT players lives miserable from us joining them, etc.

Certainly it is nice that you exist here ManWolfAxeBoss and we greatly appreciate it and the very few Riot members who are involved (willingly anyway). The balance changes are a great start but there needs to be more WORD out and give players more reason to stay in the map than to branch out because they are throttled from the lack of things Dominion has (again, no seasonal rewards, etc).

I am always hopeful each year, even though it is hurting to be this hopeful this long, but I will continue to play this map (along with some ARAM on the side).

I just ask to not turn the map into a bunch of laning phases like the other maps do as that was one of the main reasons I and some others have came to this. If I wanted to "lane" all the time I'd just play bot 24/7 =p (not that bot lane is bad, just it gives a bit of both and is more exciting than top lane in SR)


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Here’s something quick with respect to game flow, rewards, and flatness.

If I understand correctly, it feels ‘good’ to be rewarded for a good play. For example, when you are playing better than your opponent, there should be ways to push your advantage. If you are ahead or manage to pick an opponent off you can off the top of my head:

SR:
Push your wave to enemy tower to deny them exp
Invade enemy jungle/steal buffs
Get oracles, destroy vision
Take a tower
Dragon
Baron
Inhibitor


Dominion:
Camp enemy jungle
Capture middle/bot of opponent
5 cap if possible
Bait out revives
Go back and heal/buy and get back into an advantageous position if time permits
Get into advantageous position without buying if no time
Push creep wave or get it auto pushing
Pressure Bot

I guess the “problems” with dominion are that
1: the priority of the objectives don’t change that much over the course of the game compare with those in SR
2: The objectives tend to be more subtle in dominion. Some of the objectives are similar to those that already exist in SR (bait out flashes when ganking, split pushing and baron baiting to gain better positioning/open up opportunities)
3: since the objectives are somewhat user driven and not map based entities, they aren’t as satisfying.


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Chaosos

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I'm curious what the difference would be if we just did two different things
1. Counted up instead of down
2. Made it so captured points get you somewhere no matter what, like Arathi basin in WoW how even a 4 cap still lets the other side get a small trickle, which if they were massively ahead might be enough for them to win.

I'm not convinced 2 is the best idea because it prevents massive epic comebacks and made everyone get projected victory mods, as you could be ahead now point wise but still manage to drain them down fast enough.


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Isysar

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavez Obama View Post
Thanks, I used to play on Cheese. Glad I provided entertainment. Wish I knew then what I know now about how to improve.

I had a draft written up about dominion's status. I will have to get that finalized and modified to post with these recent events.

A quick summary though, my thoughts are that the jolt that will bring dominion (back) to life has to be something from publicizing the game mode. Tweaks and balancing and reworking the mode are great, and will help emphasize the ongoing success of the mode once it has been brought back into the public eye. It will keep the population from dwindling, and instead, people will embrace a balanced and fun mode.

But, there will be no people unless Dominion is brought into the public eye.
I agree. A big public jolt is just what is needed.