Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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WoLFGaRN

Member

10-23-2013

Quick thought riot how about when you ask us for our opinions you take them instead of ruining a champion we love like you did to olaf?


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Infested Duran

Junior Member

10-23-2013

To me there are two major aspects of playing skarner that are fun. The first is using all of his utility, his ult, his Crystalline Slash, and his speed boost, to take out a high value target on the enemy team. The second is knowing that as he is, he's not the easiest champion to play, and his difficulty makes him much more satisfying to play. One such example is a level 3 gank where you have to get close enough to use his slow, which is effective and not op, because the slow is applied on the charged hit, and the lack of a jump/dash/teleport makes this challenging.

The most frustrating thing about skarner is that to use his passive effectively some attack speed must be bought, which delays any tankiness that a melee bruiser/off-tank needs.

The most frustrating thing about playing against skarner is trying to judge how good the skarner is, and how he builds skarner: movespeed/tank/all-cc/bruiser.

I do not believe that there is any champion that does skarner's job better than skarner does, because skarner, as he is currently, is such a unique champion.

I've never done poorly in a game because of skarner, just the person playing him(which has been me in the past), and his kit is currently set up to the maximum effectiveness without making him ridiculously overpowered. Most champions are on one side or the other of being OP or UP and he s set just in the middle. I do not believe that just because people are not willing to try him, or are not good at him, means that Riot would have to change the champion to be super appealing to the gamers. I know that Roit would like to see all of the champions played equally, but that is not going to happen. Most people are going to sway with whomever is currently overpowered, or easiest to play, but it is not good take make all of the champions easy to play, where would be the fun? Skill woulds lose most of it's meaning, and just who grabbed who in champion select would win the games. For those people who don't realize it, the game is played mostly be lower elo's not massive amounts of professional gamers and changes like this only have a limited effect on the professional scene. Currently there are very good items for skarner in S3, so that should not cause a change to him. I hope that this is considered, and I did not intend to offend people, even though I'm sure it happened.

Play well Play on


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MaknBaknPanCakes

Junior Member

10-23-2013

I talked to someone with an interesting idea. What if Skarner still gained health back but it was moved over to his w, Like "while Skarners shield is active he gains a certain amount of health back whenever he auto attacks.Or maybe the autoattacks strengthen the shield itself, until it caps at a certain point? This way you could build attack speed on skarner without having to sacrifice survivability or sustain.


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Locke64

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Why can't Q give more AS? Is it because it would make his already quite speedy jungle clear way too fast? If that's the case, what about giving two stacks when it hits a champion? And accordingly doubling the number of stacks and not-quite-halving the value of each stack - i.e. 3/3.5/4/4.5/5% per stack, max 6 stacks. Then it takes longer to ramp up in the jungle (current iteration grants 12% AS after 3 stacks at level 1, this would grant only 9% after 3 stacks, 18% after 6 - but who ever takes 6 Q's to clear a camp), but we still get our wanted buff against champions (full 18% after 3 Q's at rank 1, 30% at rank 5).

If that's not the problem, then KyroRayne's solution looks good - give extra stacks if you hit extra champions. This wouldn't have any effect in the jungle or in 1v1s, but if you hit Q in the middle of 3 enemy champions in a teamfight, you can get your well-deserved AS boost immediately to get its full benefit before you're punished for being in the middle of three enemies.

You could also add some synergy between Q and E by implementing your previous idea of proccing E's marks to grant AS. Just instead of directly granting AS, they grant a charge on Q. That could also lead to interesting strategies like E a minion (ideally both a minion and your target) and smite it (or build Liandry's) to prime Q to get the extra magic damage on the first hit on your real target. If such strategies aren't desirable, you could always limit it to damage from autoattacks and Q.

I'm just throwing out ideas though. I'm of the opinion that this kit should be shelved in favor of minor changes (mana costs & R QoL). We'll have a better idea of what he needs once the S4 changes hit live.


Also, from the videos I've seen, players seemed to frequently lose their stacks. Was this just because they're inexperienced with Skarner, or does the lack of a lockdown actually make this happen more frequently? Any experienced Skarner players in PBE able to give feedback here?


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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Scruffy- no movement on this since the PBE pulldown. Can we get an idea of what's happening with this?

Also- guy who magically said 1v1 was better despite no proof of that... I don't need to watch Ray Allen shoot free throws to know the vast majority of them will go in. I can simply look at the numbers. Since all you offered was logically flawed "because I said so" I'll stick with my beliefs.


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MadnessJoker777

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Just don't rework skarner.....Skarner is pretty strong, I beat Jax seveal times when I played skarner top.


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WuteverEU

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I'd really like an update on things. I realize pre-season is hectic as f*ck and that Xerath and Heimer need to get pushed out too, but this is important. Maybe this whole rework should be pushed back to S4 because of the radical jungle changes?

I think there's a lot of people that want to hear your oppinion about our feedback and the new jungle, and how Skarner will function there.

#saveskarner2013


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

10-24-2013
33 of 35 Riot Posts

Hey all, for the next pass when he comes back up on the PBE I will be increasing the shield values on W slightly. I completely understand the worry that the removal of heal will hurt his viability in top lane. The goal here is definitely not to remove the option for Skarner to go top lane. Thus after seeing the feedback and doing some more number crunching, we are increasing the shield numbers to help compensate for the loss in sustain.

Live Shield: 70/115/160/205/250 (0.6 AP) 18s cooldown
PBE Shield: 80/135/190/245/300 (0.8 AP) 14s cooldown

-Scruffy


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FurryFurball

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all, for the next pass when he comes back up on the PBE I will be increasing the shield values on W slightly. I completely understand the worry that the removal of heal will hurt his viability in top lane. The goal here is definitely not to remove the option for Skarner to go top lane. Thus after seeing the feedback and doing some more number crunching, we are increasing the shield numbers to help compensate for the loss in sustain.

Live Shield: 70/115/160/205/250 (0.6 AP) 18s cooldown
PBE Shield: 80/135/190/245/300 (0.8 AP) 14s cooldown

-Scruffy
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Thus after seeing the feedback and doing some more number crunching, we are increasing the shield numbers to help compensate for the loss in sustain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
after seeing the feedback
Oh, that's funny. Here I thought the majority of the feedback thinks the rework is bad. Just give QoL fixes to his E and R and leave the rest of his kit as it is.

But nah. Let's not listen to the people who don't like the new kit at all, which seems to be the majority. Let's just continue with it and pull another Karma fiasco.


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A2ZOMG

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Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all, for the next pass when he comes back up on the PBE I will be increasing the shield values on W slightly. I completely understand the worry that the removal of heal will hurt his viability in top lane. The goal here is definitely not to remove the option for Skarner to go top lane. Thus after seeing the feedback and doing some more number crunching, we are increasing the shield numbers to help compensate for the loss in sustain.

Live Shield: 70/115/160/205/250 (0.6 AP) 18s cooldown
PBE Shield: 80/135/190/245/300 (0.8 AP) 14s cooldown

-Scruffy
That's honestly...a kinda insane buff. We're talking potentially exceeding lategame Shen levels of durability here, especially considering the fact that instead of running on a 200 unit energy system you have a scaling mana pool instead. Assuming maxed CDR, a 300 base shield on what is essentially a 5 second cooldown in combat is pretty insane.

As someone who likes Skarner, I agree with many people that losing the permaslow is disappointing, but I personally don't understand the complaints that the rework is bad. I really appreciate the efforts to even out his dueling potential at all points of the game, and I always personally felt like Skarner was defined by his dueling and initiation.

Instead of buffing Skarner's shield to insanity levels though, I honestly think it would make more sense to increase the power of his damaging abilities. Considering that his standard build is largely comprised of defensive items, I would focus more on his damage at this point to round him out.

You stated that the intention of buffing his shield was to assist his laning, but I believe this buff honestly more impacts his jungling and makes it maybe slightly too safe (and a few pages back, I stated that Skarner hits level 4 by around 3:20 and level 6 by around 5:50, which means you are buffing already objectively insane jungling). I think Skarner STILL more likely wants to level his E before leveling his W when laning, partly because it's a damaging ability, and also because the slow was moved to that.

Without a permaslow on Q, W is less desirable to level up in laning given this encourages his lane opponent to simply disengage when Skarner uses his shield, which is not exactly super mana efficient without ranks. If in contrast you want this to be a laning ability, the mana cost needs to scale with rank and be reduced earlygame similar to the changes to his E (which is actually very mana efficient last time I checked).