Future of Dominion: Chat with ManWolfAxeBoss

First Riot Post
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IshmaeI

Senior Member

10-23-2013

twisted treeline is something I hope to see more emphasis on, right now I play mostly 5v5 but as a player I am MUCH more skilled at twisted treeline, I love the map, the shorter game duration, and the extreme emphasis on teamwork of 3v3 play.

I could very well see myself being a plat - dia level TT player while I am probably a silver-gold elo SR player.


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Barry Zukercorn

Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
These are my personal thoughts in regards to Dominion's lack of popularity relative to Summoner's Rift. I think the lack of phases turns a lot of people off and I believe that's what Morello was referring to when he said "flattened." In both game modes, winning is the obvious goal, but how you do it never really evolves in Dom the way it does in SR. In Dom you rush to the point and hold the point. There are no other meaningful secondary objectives (I'm obviously over-simplifying things so don't be upset here). The quests and stormshields never become focal points. In SR you have a laning phase that evolves into skirmishes over Dragon. Laning eventually completely disappears and is replaced by 5v5 team fights over baron and other objectives. There are clear transitions that empower players in ways that Dom does not.
I honestly don't feel this way, and it may just be me. I feel that there are clear cut phases in dominon but it isn't provided by the map like it is in SR. In dominion the phases in the game are entirely dependent on the two team compositions. Due to the relatively flat gold rate in dominion, unless a team is feeding, the champions you bring with you will define how your team progresses in the game. What I mean by this is tanks and casters start to become threats and difficult to deal after the first two or three major fights/skirmishes. Assassins and marksman are late-game terrors. Due to the relatively flat gold rate team compositions define where the team's strengths and weaknesses are. Timing aggression and plays around knowing your own strengths and weaknesses seem to me the key to winning as a team in Dominion.

With differing team compositions you have to play the game phases differently. If you have a late-game focused composition, e.g. dual assassins, then game is entirely different once those characters have hit their sweet spots in power and the game takes on an entirely different feel to me. I've seen a Dominate Dominion finals match turn entirely on its head simply because one team had a talon and a zed and with their late game power turned around what was looking like defeat.


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EZNtree

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I don't believe that ranked dominion would split the player base as much as riot seems to think. And the longer it takes them to treat dominion as a real game mode, the more the player base will decay and stagnate


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Demon King Kitex

Junior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isysar View Post
My final comment would be whatever you do at Riot, please learn from this vast mistake in Dominion. You're a kickass company! That's why the world expects so much from you, b/c you've given us so much and set a standard of expectation that is, in my opinion, only matched by Blizzard Entertainment (inc rage posts, *****ing, accusations, **** yous and I want to rape your mother comments). If you're going to make new stuff in the future, SUPPORT IT IN THE SAME MANNER YOU SUPPORT SUMMONER'S RIFT.
I came from blizzard games, Starcraft and Warcraft 3 got me into MOBA's, I think blizzard has dropped the ball as of recent, SC2 weird always online polices, bullying the pro community of SC1 away to attempt to make more money on SC2, D3s outright lies, not listening to players and essentially flipping us off. Pre WoW blizzard loved the players, now that it seems they have their cash cow they just love to **** us, I just hope riot does not take the same path... As the current point stands I agree Dom, TT, HA are in a bad place for competitive gameplay but when I am sick of summoners rift, or want to play quicker more chaotic maps where I can do pretty much anything I want without someone going "THATS NOT THE META REPORT THIS ****ING NOOB PEICE OF **** HE COST US THE GAME ALREADY WHAT'S THE POINT?!?" *starts feeding*, I can always load up a queue in a very short time frame, I recall waiting hours on WC3 or starcraft to get a single 20 min game (that could still be trolled into a waste of time) in the hopes of endlessly playing with the same people just so we could get quick games. I can't really complain about Dom, TT, or HA, they always just seemed like side game to SR (TT being the one that seems most cared for as it is the most close to SR).


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Shukarhazh

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
Aside from that I would rework the way capture points interact with the draining of nexus points.. Players should be rewarded for capturing a point even if that point is the only one they have. Each point should drain a set amount from the nexus crystal, not be barred from being of any help to the team until three points are captured -that is a horrible and frustratingly unrewarding game mechanic that should have never been implemented.
Slowing down the rate of damage to my Nexus is not "horrible and frustratingly unrewarding" to me.


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Eagle37

Senior Member

10-24-2013

I come from a fps game background. I played 1 year of SR always complaining about the same things:

"Why is the game even worth playing after the enemy team get such a big lead, this is probably 90% sure over."

Then I discovered dominion. The only way you can beat your opponent is not to win the first top fight then snowball your way to victory with limited chance from your opponent to come back, but you actually have to OUTPLAY your opponent with map movement, mechanics in fight and overall decision making super fast during the 10-20 minutes games take. It resemble so much of what I loved about my fps games. I just feel when I play dominion that everything is on your skills and your team skills. A feeling I've never had playing SR where luck can actually play a huge part of why your team got randomly ahead with no chance of come back.

Some people have said it already but this is so important: don't turn dominion into another SR variation (like TT). The concept of the mode is perfect as it is. It still needs a bit (a lot) of tuning but conceptually or accidentally the game you created works and is filled with super high moments.

(Important part)

The problem for newbies comes from the fact that they don't know how to create those high moments cause they are not playing the game to it's maximum (hell I'm not even sure actual high elo dom players play in the most efficient way...meta can always evolve). SR is easier to understand at first and you know exactly what you have to do. Killing a tower is much more rewarding then capping a random point. It's filled with those small rewards. Dominion is always big picture.

Just like why you introduced the new ranking ladder. Give players a way to get a better sense of progress and small achievements. Dominion is like the old ranked ladder. Both are THE SAME EXACT SYSTEM. It's just the way it looks. All the way it looks. We need to figure out a way to get this sense of small achievements in dominion just for the look of it. Killing a tower in SR always gets you a satisfaction feeling even if you are 20k gold behind.

It's hard for new player to enjoy dominion cause they're no such things as small achievements no matter how little they matter in the big picture. High elo players or experienced dom players have learn to enjoy the game to it's max cause they actually understand that capping this point, ganking bot, blowing revives....actually matters a lot in the big picture. They got that sense from hundreds of games.

The mode is fine to an extent. It's just the experience and those small high moments that lacks for new players. (I actually understand better what Morello said after writing this).

But PLEASE don't change Dominion into another SR-like map where snowball is everything. Having a non-snowball environment (not 100% true) is the best part of dominion and what I enjoy the most about the mode. I'm sure others do too.


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FDru

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Very well said, Eagle37


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Eagle has it. For instance, I played a 3s ranked game against a plat 1 team, and their Vi built Hydra -> cleaver and wondered why she did no damage. Also had horrible fight mechanics and fell off hard after her early bully.


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IronAegis

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
I agree there's plenty that could be done not only for Dominion, but also TT and HA.

As an aside, there's no need for bold text. Everyone's post will be read.
I think everyone agrees that there's plenty that could be done, but I get the sense that everyone wonders what will actually get done for the mode. Morello's comment seems to cement the idea that Riot's top-level doesn't really consider Dominion all that much except to use as an aside to say "See? This mode doesn't work because X." Where "X" is something that makes SR popular (we're told). Morello didn't offer any potential solutions to the problem of Dominion being unpopular, and he didn't even state that correcting this issue is something Riot is actively working on. Instead we got "Yeah, Dominion is unpopular and broken." Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, you know?

What kind of resources is Riot really willing to put into making Dominion popular if you guys truly believe that the players will dictate what they like? You've certainly done a lot for us, MWAB, but the changes we're discussing sound like they would take a lot of time and resources. Is Riot going to dedicate those resources to making the changes the mode obviously seems to need? Judging by your and Morello's comments, it doesn't seem like it, but I'm speculating. If not, is there much point to having this conversation other than making us feel good about having some kind of interaction with Riot other than crickets?

Edits: Typos/Grammar.


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Paqi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-24-2013

Both Morello and MWAB mentioned the fact that the faster-paced, flatter design of Dominion doesn't generally appeal to the types of players that are drawn to Summoner Rift's style of gameplay.

I think they're right, but if Riot's conclusion is that they should deallocate resources from Dominion, they're missing a pretty big business opportunity. Think of it this way, if LoL's player base mostly contains gamers of one particular type, then maps like Dominion provide Riot the opportunity to expand their player base by drawing in players that hate the slow ramp up of SR.

As several posters have pointed out, there's next to no support or promotion for this map. Players that are curious about LoL are immediately being pushed towards SR by the available tutorials and most of the information on the website. A lot of the players that decide LoL-SR isn't for them might actually be huge fans of Dominion style game-play. And there are only maybe 3 Riot employees responsible for all three alternate map types, severely slowing down their development.

The existence of these alternate maps have, in my opinion, always distinguished Riot's offering from other MOBAs, but Riot has thus far failed to take advantage of these opportunities that they've set up for themselves. Right now they're wholly focused on a population of gamers that are split between LoL and DOTA. There's a greenfield opportunity for Riot that Valve and their other direct competitors can't compete for, and Riot's not seizing this advantage.

To underscore this point, see this pretty amazing Ted Talk on consumer preferences, and how it revolutionized the spaghetti sauce industry