Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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NaNoSoLdIeR

Junior Member

10-23-2013

I think people talking about pantheon are biased a lot by past interactions, I've been picking him up in the jungle and he feels fine enough to be fun. I wouldn't pick him for laning though, there's too much stuff out there that counters him.

The only 2 things he could be improved on for me are:
Make small camps break his passive early on (big wraith and big wolf don't break it, in the first few minutes of the game, which makes him take a lot of damage)
Make him less blue dependent to clear camps (add a condition on his e that he crits monsters that are below 25%).

This would give him a clear role where he doesn't get countered so much


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LxLegend

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Possibly, but that means it takes more attacks to build it up without enemies nearby, which is a direct nerf to jungle and solo lane pantheon.

Cool thought though
What about a reverse Garen Passive where his HP/5 increases 10% for each enemy champion/monster around him maximum 50%.


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Runeimus Prime

Member

10-23-2013

I'm gonna go and give my perspective as a long time Pantheon main.
He's definitely fun champ to play, (IMO, the funnest), but can't help but feel he's very outdated.
His problems are:

1. Does not scale well into late game
2. His ult doesn't give enough reward; it's too long to cast and easy enough to dodge, making it useful in its utility only. This results in players not wanting to level up his ult past rank 1, not until his Q and E, his only damaging tool, are all maxed out.
3. His passive suits bruiser type more, rather than AD caster type; Pantheon does not auto attacks.
4. He has AP scaling while supposed to build AD heavy.

So, how to address this?
My idea is to rework his ult so it becomes rewarding and become a damage tool for bursting and also scale well into late game.

1. Make his ult a bit unpredictable. Make it so when Panth is about to land, he can choose the landing point anywhere inside the big circle, and he will change the landing position. This makes the ult a bit unpredictable and more useful, given the time needed to land this ult is pretty long.

2. After landing, give Pantheon a little bit of armor penetration bonus (make him glow red for like 2 seconds maybe). So it gives Pantheon more burst to do his assasination. This also should fix his late game scaling, since he'll got a better armor pen bonus each rank, and people have a reason to upgrade his ult. And change it to small AD scaling, too.

3. Take away his block passive, replace it with the certain death passive crit from his E. The reason is, Pantheon is not an auto attacker, so this passive doesn't really suits his play style. But shields are a big part of Pantheon's gameplay, you cannot just take that away, which brings me to the last point:

4. Rework his W. Give him a small AD scaling, and make it a skillshot. Everytime Panth use it, he'll activate the Aegis Of Protection block. If used to an enemy, he'll stun them for 1 second and small damage. If used to a friendly unit, he'll just jump.

The reason is, so Panth can now decide whether he has to escape or commit to a fight, and the passive block now applies here, not refreshing every 4 attacks.

I think these changes should help Pantheon without losing his identity and his core gameplay.


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Proelium

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Disclaimer: still not a designer, and still not working on Pantheon in any way, merely a Pantheon enthusiast.

One of the repeated themes from this conversation is that Pantheon is positioned weirdly between a bruiser and an Assassin. His passive suggests auto-attack trading bruiser, but his lack of escapes, and other defensive steroids cause him to explode when focused in a teamfight, and he's particularly susceptible to peels because he only has 1 gap closer, and his full rotation takes 3 seconds to pull off.

I feel like this is a valid point. His base stats (other than move speed) aren't particularly impressive, so even though his AD ratios are absurd, it feels like you cannot utilize them because of how risky engaging with him is. Many people have offered the suggestion that we improve or buff his Aegis in teamfights, and although I don't know how we would do that without dramatically increasing his power level, that seems like a good direction to explore. The question that brings up is whether that can be done in a way which solidifies his role in either direction, or if simply buffing both is a good thing (I doubt that it is tbh).

A second concern is that his early game feels abusive to play against for players who don't counterpick (this is likely a bigger problem in blind pick than draft mode, which is what I play most). The general feeling is that his strong early game requires a relatively weaker late game.

I think this is part of what differentiates Pantheon from other picks. Generally speaking, Pantheon isn't picked for his late game prowess, or even his ability to blow up an ADC. There are definitely other champions that do that better. That said, very few can apply a similar amount of global pressure. This relative power level throughout the game provides different strategic options for a Pantheon pick, and/or team composition including him. I don't have a clear answer as to how to balance these things, but my bigger question is should we? Would moving Pantheon out of his role as lane bully that falls off improve the game and the options you have as a player? Or does that role fit within LoL? I don't honestly know but I think the pros outweigh the cons in this particular case.

Couple points-
1. I would be super disappointed if Riot started balancing around blind pick... That'd just be sad.
2. If he's any LESS of a lane bully he'll be a jungler or you'd have to rework to give him sustain and/or an escape... Think about it, most "good" top laners have either sustain, or a decent escape... or are a total lane bully... some are two or even three of those things. Pantheon has one.

I've provided a few ideas that could help his lategame without strengthening his early game, i'd LOVE to see those ideas explored.


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Xephyrinox

Junior Member

10-23-2013

I'll adress what i think are the main problem with his kit that make it so frustrating and toxic to play against Pantheon -

His passive -
Aegis protection
After attacking or casting spells 4 times, Pantheon will block the next incoming basic attack or turret attack.


Lets consider this scenario -

Imagine your Vs a level 3 pantheon in lane, farming at a safe distance.After farming 4 minions he gets his passive up,he auto-attacks the enemy once while blocking the incoming skill or auto(due to passive), then uses W(which instantly refreshes his Aegis Protection)then auto-attacks once,then uses E and then backs off while using a Q right in your face.

Lets look at this from the opponent's point of view -
So the opponent attacks with skill or auto once to get through Pantheon's passive,he then waits again for pantheon's stun duration to end, to fight back with a skill or auto-attack but it fails due to Aegis protection Again! Meanwhile, pantheon has cast his E.

Next, while being attacked by E, the opponent lands maybe one auto-attack or skill or both?
By this time,pantheon has backed after shooting a Q right in your face. Now the opponent can decide to chase and try to equal the already lost trade, or just back off to not take further damage.

If you take out the passive from that trade, then it allows for much fairer trades and will also make pantheon players be more careful and time their trades properly or risk taking free much damage.

Tl;dr i think a rework on his passive that helps Pantheon more in teamfights would be more appreciated by both Pantheon players and the people who play against him.


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MaingoSeven

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I honestly feel like AD carries bully a lane harder than Pantheon.
The guy has never felt scary whatsoever to me.


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Proelium

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xephyrinox View Post

Tl;dr i think a rework on his passive that helps Pantheon more in teamfights would be more appreciated by both Pantheon players and the people who play against him.
No.

No it wouldn't be appreciated at least not by me or most any other Pantheon player I know.


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Proelium

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

I still think like I said earlier. Take some of the upfront damage off Panth's ult and put it into some utility (like a better slow, or a stun on center hit, or some kind of damage buffer for Pantheon if enemies are caught in it... just anything that makes him more useful in teamfights other than the CHANCE of landing 1k magic damage on center hit on a super avoidable move.


Keep the jump, lower the damage, add a slow with a stun on center hit and some kind of buff for Panth while he's in the circle for a few seconds like Trundle's area effect.


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Ryden7

Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Possibly, but that means it takes more attacks to build it up without enemies nearby, which is a direct nerf to jungle and solo lane pantheon.

Cool thought though
Hey!

hope I'm not late to the party, just saw the discussion and I'd like to chime in.

I've been a Pantheon main since season 1, I have 1050 Pantheon games played with a 51% win rate at the moment. Im currently sitting at Diamond 1. Overall, I feel pretty comfortable and confident when I talk about Pantheon. I'd like to go over some of the things I feel are wrong with Pantheon.

1. Lack of CC and role constraints: His CC is very lackluster. Im taking into account the enemy as well so it might seem silly to increase his CC because it would make Pantheons burst combo easier to hit and offer very little counter play. But for someone like me who plays Pantheon in the top lane, its frustrating to play against someone who builds merc treads and reduces the CC down to .5 seconds which is not enough to keep them pinned and get off your damage without making yourself a sitting target.

1A. Role definition: In team fights locking down a target becomes much harder because as you already explained, he is very susceptible to peels. Once someone interrupts his Aegis of Zeonia, he loses his ability to assassinate a priority target and is left on the front lines. Which turns him into a fighter, and probably about average in that role. He doesn't have a specific category on where he stands. His passive makes him a fighter, but his damage output pulls him more in the assassin direction. He needs to have a better defined role.

1B. Predictability: This point goes to Pantheons ultimate which many have stated isn't very good. I disagree, I think Pantheons ult is amazing in terms of global pressure but there are a few problems with it. When Pantheon is ulting, its very easy to tell who he is going to target and the delay that causes him to land makes it that much easier to disable him once he lands. Before Pantheon can cast Aegis of Zeonia, he must land at the center of the circle, when correctly timed which is fairly easy to do, you can stop him from using Aegis of Zeonia by using some form of crowd control like a Zyra snare or a Janna tornado.

1C. Ultimate CC: When I first started playing Pantheon, I had no idea his ultimate even had a slow %. It seems like its very miniscule and is hardly noticeable. Im thinking in order to help Pantheons crowd control, why not give him the GP treatment, where after the circle is revealed, all players in the circle are slowed for the designated amount of 35% (or more, needs testing)


My solution to fix this is to reduce the time it takes him to land. This wouldn't completely fix the issue because he would still be easy to CC.

2. Positioning: You stated that what defines great Pantheon players from good Pantheon players is the proper use of his overall kit. I agree with you, and I have something else to add. When trying to maximize damage output, you want to be able to position your Heartseeker Strike so that it hits the maximum number of targets and also want to be able to hit your crowd controlled target (Aegis of Zeonia). Although this makes it so Pantheon can do more damage, it makes it so that when trying to reposition, the crowd controlled target will have had enough time to move because the duration of the CC is so short. In a sense, once Aegis of Zeonia is cast, you must blow all of your spells on that champion in order to burst him or risk doing nothing at all.

I understand that he is an assassin and that's what he does, but its very stale in terms of game play. You don't have many options in what you can do as a Pantheon player.

3. Mobility: As an Assassin, almost all assassin champions have some sort of mobility to them in order to kill their designated target. Pantheon has this with his ultimate, but the rest of his kit doesn't match. You have the ability to get into the back lines, but once you're there, After casting Aegis of Zeonia, you are completely still. In order to assassinate your target, you must pray that your spells are not interrupted. Once his spells are interrupted, he must wait 9 seconds (not including CDR) in order to go in on that target again. Lets assume that we will have 15% CDR on him, this is from Black Cleaver/Brutalizer and assuming you have 4 points in the offense tree for CDR. this brings his stun duration down to about 7.65 exactly, which is still REALLY long.

3A. Escapes:
the All-in style of Pantheon makes it so hes very susceptible to ganks. This might be intended but once you're ganked, you're pretty much dead if you don't have flash. This isn't too much of a big deal because I understand what Riot is trying to do with him and the all in style fits with his ult, but still frustrating.

4. Itemization and how easy it is to kite him: This one is tricky. Being an AD caster, there are very few items that Pantheon can build in order to fulfill his role correctly, but leaves his very susceptible to other areas. As you explained previously, his base stats are nothing impressive, and if hes playing the assassin style (which best fits his kit) hes very easy to focus down. With his lack of mobility and easy to interrupt channeled spells, you can kite him and Pantheon will have no response. There are some items that are nice like Youmuu's ghostblade, but have him once again fighting for a role. If Pantheon did build that item, he would become more of a fighter and less of an assassin. He could chase down his targets briefly, but significantly less damage output. Its a too big of an investment to build Youmuus instead of an assassin.

5. Armor: Pantheon having very high damage on his abilities make armor his best counter. That makes complete sense, but I feel as though it counters him too hard. If he doesn't have any armor penetration, he cannot ever fight someone who stacks both armor and health. So items like sunfire cape are an easy solution to him and Pantheon has very little counter play. That's mainly because he has to decide on armor penetration (which is his best bet) or pure damage (not very good for mid/late game). Note that i'm talking about early game itemization. In summary, His lack of itemization and poor base stats plays a key role in dealing with bruisers. Once he builds an offensive item, it makes him very squishy mid to late game.

6. Easily shut down: Pantheon is super easy to shut down, his lack of escapes and poor response to armor stacking make it to once hes behind, he wont be able to become useful again in any part of the game. He can't even go tanky and become a bruiser/peeler because of his weak CC. The tradeoff for even choosing that path would be very little damage which is a very poor tradeoff.

Things that I really like on Pantheon are:
his passive reset when using Aegis of Zeonia
his ultimate being able to position effectively and cause chaos in team fights
he's a huge lane bully

I really hope you get a chance to look at this and respond, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and was waiting for the thread to pop back up again as Morello said so I could give my feedback.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclear dragon View Post
i'm fine with pantheon being a lane bully. That's fine.

I believe he has a good niche and exerts good global pressure, but i believe he needs some extra polish. The extreme damage on his ultimate is not particularly necessary, and the general consensus is that players want him to be better in a team-fight. Note that i said better, not excellent. I find it acceptable for him to fall off late game, like renekton. However, renekton still acts as an excellent damage sponge late game. Pantheon can't do much tanking or damage in a late game team-fight. He also doesn't have the in-fight utility (ult can't be used viably inside combat) or pre-combat poke to help. Like i mentioned earlier, giving him safe pre-combat poke (maybe by giving his spear the option of being a skillshot) or by giving him a bonus on kill/assists (such as skill resets, not sure) can allow him to be more useful in a fight without buffing his laning or dueling capabilities.

I would like to add that i believe it should be emphasized that spartans thrive in battle. Just like the movie 300, pantheon should be thrilled to engage many enemies, and i believe it would be thematically appropriate for him to get buffs depending on the amount of enemy champions nearby.
exactly.