@Morello, About gold income for junglers/supports

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Gnomersy

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
Didn't read the whole thing, but from what I skimmed, I think the thing you are saying is assassins and ADCs are too strong.

S2 was similar for a lot of it. It was really AoE or Poke from what I can remember.
Partially yes but I'm also concerned about powercreep/mobility creep in kit design and stat free damage(seriously Morello or anyone at Riot please stop releasing %health damage on champions with awesome kits and if you make it %health true damage I hope you have vindictive brothers who will punch you in the gut).


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Pro Gamer Boobs

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We have a solution that will be grossly mistuned to address this when we launch. More when Xelnath posts on it!
Okay, good.

I'm glad there will be something to address this issue. I really fear the increased income will make utility mages like Zyra and Orianna completely outclass traditional supports, as they easily have the scaling to become secondary APC's while offering a lot of utility, where as traditional supports can only offer the latter.


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Khristophoros

The Council

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That's a direction argument, because you don't weight the costs of extreme freedom for anyone to do anything. We focus much more on tactical play combined with strategy, which drives a different set of decisions.

If you want to farm the jungle, then you should choose a character who wants to farm the jungle and buy an item that makes you super good at that. With that gold, choose what new items you buy. The choice lives in the income expression, not the acceleration method. You need Smite because it's something we added to the game that players found invaluable - should we force that out for the sake of directionless variety?

As long as the construct is "objectives matter," then Smite will always be a must pick. A guy who kills monsters with high health will like that spell.
DotA doesn't allow you to do anything with every hero. In fact only a handful are viable as junglers. It's the same really.

I think what the person you were responding to was getting at is that we get railroaded too hard by design in LoL. Junglers have to give up a summoner spell for PvE. The interaction of contesting with smite is NOT nearly enough to make up for this. Honestly I can't believe you main jungle and you can't see this. Take 100 games off from playing jungle and maybe from that contrast you will realize how suffocating and restrictive it is to be the guy carrying smite for the whole game.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

10-23-2013

wtf was with all the bad TCG arguing for the last 10 pages?
Riot keeps Smite in the game for the same reason Wizards keeps a ton of staple cards in perpetual circulation. Wizards bans cards that heavily warp a given format, but they allow archetypes to keep their staple cards basically forever.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-23-2013
40 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RtMbot View Post
I have a concern about jungler income. If jungler income is supposed to go up to allow carry-type junglers to just sit there and farm all day, aren't you worried about potential gameplay changes?

Let's say I'm Gangplank or Jax, and all I'm doing is just sitting in my own jungle free-farming. Now because it's never a good idea to just let carries free farm, the enemy team has to go and stop me. Of course the enemy jungler can do that, but they're not always going to be able to just duel me, and that basically means that the enemy team has to waste resources covering more than just their lanes/jungle. They have to find me and stop me from becoming too big.

Now, let's say I'm Skarner, or Udyr, or Trundle. These guys aren't squishy melee carries. These guys are tanky dudes who will flat-out murder you if you try to take them on by yourself (Jax can't even stand up to them until very late game). Hell, they can probably win 1v2s as well depending on what they're facing. And the scary thing is that these guys scale well into late-game with both offensive and defensive items, it's just they haven't built both since jungle farm didn't allow it, but now it does. Obviously Skarner isn't really known for building damage, but we all know what happens if he does. And since they're such good duelists and clearers, what's stopping them from just taking over the enemy jungle and getting even more gold income? So, if they're not taken care of they could essentially become an immortal mess that can still rip your team to shreds. Not like farming the jungle is particularly hard either...

Now, the issue with "zoning" these guys from their farm is that since they're such good duelists, you can't really expect one guy to go in and just scare them away. You'd need a coordinated effort from two or more people. The issue I'm having here is that zoning someone in a lane is fairly simple. If you're stronger than them and can use that to your advantage, you can deny them farm. The farm is all right there, and they're all right there as well. You don't have to go seek them out in their own environment, and you don't have to figure out where they're farming.

Could you provide some insight on this please? At least tell me it's not as drastic as I'm making it sound, or that you're being mindful of this. I'd like to know because personally I wouldn't like a strict counter-jungle meta to ensure that a certain someone doesn't get too far ahead too easily.
We're not expecting solo-lane gold here, just a lower disparity than currently so it's not so gold-starved. This also will require a lot of tuning, but we want to allow this "you fight weak early, but this guy late can be quite strong.

Let's say you're Rammus (NOT BECAUSE I'VE BEEN SPAMMING HIM IN RANKED OR ANYTHING) and enemy Udyr is free farming. You're not going to exactly go beat him up.

So, some options, to me, look like;

1) Use your superior early-game ganking power to snowball lanes and take advantage of their jungler's low gank play
2) Ward for him, and coordinate with your team to collapse on him/steal his buffs
3) Match him for farm and use your CC to shut him down in mid- and late-game.

There's probably more, but I tend to think those strategies are reasonable choices.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

10-23-2013

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Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Indeed, of which Smite has none. You push a button, you get buff. There is no skill to using it against another smite using, its just fastest finger first. Stealing/securing a buff with champion abilities or a well executed teamfight requires skill, smite does not. Having good timing doesn't make smite skillful, it means that player is skilled for having good timing, smite or no smite.
You act as if Smite is the only spell that does damage to creeps. I stole Baron with a Gragas ult once while our jungler was dead, does that mean that didn't take skill too? All I had to do was point and click on the pit and have it die without needed to go into their mist to get it right? I guess we should get rid of that too seeing as there's nothing skillful to an AoE spell that covered the whole pit.

Being a biased pr*ck isn't helping your case son. It's making you look like a whiny little b*tch.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Sir Morrelo, I must ask...What kind of spooky ghoulie will we destroy that is the 4th creep camp? Bugs? Harpeys? GIANTS? GRYPHONS?

If it's just more Lizards I will be dissapoint.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-23-2013
41 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
DotA doesn't allow you to do anything with every hero. In fact only a handful are viable as junglers. It's the same really.

I think what the person you were responding to was getting at is that we get railroaded too hard by design in LoL. Junglers have to give up a summoner spell for PvE. The interaction of contesting with smite is NOT nearly enough to make up for this. Honestly I can't believe you main jungle and you can't see this. Take 100 games off from playing jungle and maybe from that contrast you will realize how suffocating and restrictive it is to be the guy carrying smite for the whole game.
I think in the Smite sense, there's an argument to that effect that I agree with - yes. It restricts options to focus on one decision constantly, and that's a nuanced thing that is not necessarily core to League. It could be more optimal to not have Smite in the game.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-23-2013
42 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryoshell17 View Post
Sir Morrelo, I must ask...What kind of spooky ghoulie will we destroy that is the 4th creep camp? Bugs? Harpeys? GIANTS? GRYPHONS?

If it's just more Lizards I will be dissapoint.
For now, not a new asset. We want to change that, but no time for it right now.


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Harib

Member

10-23-2013

Will the game ever escape the cycle?

1. Pro players spam slighlty stronger champion
2. Riot nerfs said champion
3. Pro player spam a new slightly stronger champion
4. Riot nerfs said champion