@Morello, About gold income for junglers/supports

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matrinox

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Sorry but I call Bull. You focus is on appeasing the masses with EZ mode options since you are unable to communicate to the players how to play for themselves. Hence you have a Button for securing objectives, hence you enforce the top/mid/adc/jungle/support meta and anything, anything that appears which contests it you squash instantly.

There is no strategy derived from restriction. Freedom breeds creativity, creativity breeds strategy, strategy provides depth. What you are doing and have done is adding needless complexity and that is not depth. Forcing players to have a jungler, forcing them to remain the jungler, that isn't tactical in the slightest.

When it comes to direction, you have been lost for 3 years.



Which depending on the type of jungler you are should be a item suited to the champion NOT the role. Jungler isn't a role, its a style. Sure some champions are better at this style of play than others, just like some champions are better at supporting than others. However there is no reason a support shouldn't be allowed to build AP if it had the gold to do so provided that is the strategy they wanted to execute.

Having jungle items that are only good at jungling means you are inferior to champions with items that are designed for fighting champions. This is why the "popular" junglers atm are the ones that break your fragile system and start with a Dorans blade, an item that doesn't restrict them.


No, smite will always be a must pick while it exists. You can't pick something that doesn't exist. The counter to smite is smite, remove smite and players will have to depend on their own skill to secure objects instead of the "Free Buff button" while also allowing them to be more useful endgame and more aggressive early.
Riot enforces a meta that was created by pro players...right. Riot also enforces the assassin meta.


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A Retarded Clown

Senior Member

10-23-2013

This thread is just proof taht Morello, despite all the hate he gets, is the most level headed and factual Rioter, in stark contrast to Phreak/IronStylus who have a 'my way or the high way' attitude, morello explains his point of view clearly and calmly and walks away like a boss. mad respect.

That being said, new jungle seems to hvae conflicting ideals. It seems to be saying that farm junglers are coming back (mundo/shyv/noct) but at the same time I get the feeling ward changes are aimed at making ganking easier.

In its current state, Shaco is actually in the strongest state I have seen him since his s1 nerfs. He can start dblade, clear jungle faster than aoers and 'clearer' types which gives him an edge whicvh was non existent in season 2 due to hard leashing and hyper clear, and he can gank then farm up jungle to carry real fast by rushing Hydra which instnatly transmits him into a farming/split push monster with great ganks by mid game, which used to be his super duper weak spot.

How can we expect the changes to impact guys like Shaco who are not traditional farmers, good gankers, but unlike support junglers, rely on gold to keep their edge and make jungling more than just a support role?

Also, suppose shaco turns out to be OP due to changes since if you are making mad gold in jungle AND ganks be good then the Hydra rush shaco is going to have a field day, much as he does now. Well...are we going to expect knee jerk reactions such as the ones that took talon out before acknowledging Black Cleaver stacking and LW as the real problem?

Or can we expect level headed changes that allow Shaco to retain his kit in its entirity with only minor tweaks?


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AR Manimal

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Hehe - the hate has been light - people have been pretty cool about stuff, and are understandably curious about the new stuff!
Sometimes I want to smack you with the Nerf Bat, but reading your response about jungler items that are actually specific to the jungler made me want to sprint to LA and hug you.


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Gixia

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Freedom breeds creativity, creativity breeds strategy, strategy provides depth.
Actually, most people who's job it is to actually be creative for a living will tell you that this is the exact opposite of the truth. While people often chafe under restrictions and dislike having them imposed upon them, the most creative solutions often come as a result specifically of trying to work around and within those same restrictions. Total absolute freedom is often paralyzing and leaves people overwhelmed, leading them to follow down tried and true paths that they would otherwise strain against and struggle to overcome were they forced upon them instead.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
They don't need that much - in fact, it wasn't long ago that they ere pretty good picks. In competitive, they have a weakness of collapsing teams being hyper-aware, and require the right environment to work.

Rammus, Nautilus, Amumu, etc are meta-dependent on if they're top picks. That's fine as your team comp and opponents are directly related to their power offering overall. Fighters are more self-sufficient overall and be a big deal in the dive-heavy teams we see now.
Maokai seriously needs needs some mana-refund in his kit, or substantially lower costs. Rammus and Nautilus can both clear with minimal mana (Nautilus' shield can clear camps while at the same time mitigate all damage to him) and Amumu too depending on whether you take Tantrum or Despair - but Maokai cannot clear camps without spending a substantial amount of mana, and he also needs a substantial amount of mana to gank. I think his is the source of Maokai's unpopularity - he's too mana dependent, he either clears or ganks (not both). I find that Maokai is the only jungler who seriously needs blue more than any mage/mid-laner (who assume the buff is theirs).

I understand his costs are high to curb his up time, but his down time is just so permanent. Would making his passive also refund mana actually be a problem? When Zac came out I honestly felt like I was cheating on Maokai, but Zac did it so much better - for free.


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Partholonian

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by March of Dimes View Post
I want to love what you're saying in that paragraph, but your past decisions have shown a tendency to push the game towards burst, CC, and away from kill denial, which would be the role of the linebacker (support) in your example.
I share this concern. I think if you don't think a save is as exciting as a kill, then you probably can't really enjoy the core supports, and if the game is balanced so that saves aren't encouraged (or even possible), then the core supports aren't going to be viable. Currently saves aren't even tracked -- if the person you saved kills someone, you get an assist, but otherwise you get nothing, unless that player has the decency to say thanks, which is sadly rare.

But there's a substantial segment of players who hate saves, too -- just look at the chronic complaining about barrier.


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Dances

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Is Magic a weak strategic game because of 4-per deck limits and mana curves?.
oh my heart the reference

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet (I only skipped through to the riot posts,so much information)

With supports/jungler gaining new paths for gold and I believe I heard mention of reworking the masteries some,what about the gold path in masteries?will this be a part of your plans for season 4?will it be removed?(i'm actually a little afraid of this last,no reason for it to be removed that I know of but you are reworking gold distribution)


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Trumanator

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partholonian View Post
I share this concern. I think if you don't think a save is as exciting as a kill, then you probably can't really enjoy the core supports, and if the game is balanced so that saves aren't encouraged (or even possible), then the core supports aren't going to be viable. Currently saves aren't even tracked -- if the person you saved kills someone, you get an assist, but otherwise you get nothing, unless that player has the decency to say thanks, which is sadly rare.

But there's a substantial segment of players who hate saves, too -- just look at the chronic complaining about barrier.
I wouldn't say Riot hates saves, they've said before that they think Wish is a great ult, there's thresh lantern, and they consistently talk about preferring "big plays". What they hate is sustain, which is what healing is usually used for, because it basically makes it not worthwhile to take action. A soraka lane is basically saying "we just want to sit here and farm, we can't make plays and you can't make plays".


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ThePotHead420

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I play a lane bully support where i out skill shot the enemy forcing them to retreat or turret hug giving my adc free cs and reducing the other adc's cs a lot. Are these fixes more for traditional supports or all of them. PS i play morg, lux, and swain support as well as all the traditional supports, just wondering if i get to keep my lane bully supports.

Btw i dont play support as a moving ward dispenser, i go out and make plays happen, is this play style going to be encouraged?


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RtMbot

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I have a concern about jungler income. If jungler income is supposed to go up to allow carry-type junglers to just sit there and farm all day, aren't you worried about potential gameplay changes?

Let's say I'm Gangplank or Jax, and all I'm doing is just sitting in my own jungle free-farming. Now because it's never a good idea to just let carries free farm, the enemy team has to go and stop me. Of course the enemy jungler can do that, but they're not always going to be able to just duel me, and that basically means that the enemy team has to waste resources covering more than just their lanes/jungle. They have to find me and stop me from becoming too big.

Now, let's say I'm Skarner, or Udyr, or Trundle. These guys aren't squishy melee carries. These guys are tanky dudes who will flat-out murder you if you try to take them on by yourself (Jax can't even stand up to them until very late game). Hell, they can probably win 1v2s as well depending on what they're facing. And the scary thing is that these guys scale well into late-game with both offensive and defensive items, it's just they haven't built both since jungle farm didn't allow it, but now it does. Obviously Skarner isn't really known for building damage, but we all know what happens if he does. And since they're such good duelists and clearers, what's stopping them from just taking over the enemy jungle and getting even more gold income? So, if they're not taken care of they could essentially become an immortal mess that can still rip your team to shreds. Not like farming the jungle is particularly hard either...

Now, the issue with "zoning" these guys from their farm is that since they're such good duelists, you can't really expect one guy to go in and just scare them away. You'd need a coordinated effort from two or more people. The issue I'm having here is that zoning someone in a lane is fairly simple. If you're stronger than them and can use that to your advantage, you can deny them farm. The farm is all right there, and they're all right there as well. You don't have to go seek them out in their own environment, and you don't have to figure out where they're farming.

Could you provide some insight on this please? At least tell me it's not as drastic as I'm making it sound, or that you're being mindful of this. I'd like to know because personally I wouldn't like a strict counter-jungle meta to ensure that a certain someone doesn't get too far ahead too easily.