Future of Dominion: Chat with ManWolfAxeBoss

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Coldmanj

Senior Member

10-23-2013

in all honesty I think the biggest issue with dominion is its size. It is to easy to reach all the objectives quickly. It is a mess of go here there and everywhere constantly, guard here attack there fight now. Until there is a lull point or a real travel distance incorporated that flat game play is unlikely to change.

the layout and spawn mechanic enforces this very issue however. Other games that have cap point style objective modes thrive either by how and where you spawn, hidden and unknown elements regarding what is happening at each objective and in-between them, ratio of objectives to players and their locations, clear and concise goals and a straight forward method of achieving victory.

Dominion unfortunately fails in most of these areas.
You always spawn in the same spot
You always have full vision of all objectives
objectives are in a set and obvious pattern that funnel decisions
objectives are all captured in the same way with little to no terrain interaction
5 players on a team / 5 constant objective points
minion waves muddle priorities

I cant really see a way to really make dominion a multifaceted experience without it being completely overhauled and essentially start from scratch.

the map needs to be doubled if not tripled in size. minion waves removed and instead replaced with neutral monster buff camps. vision needs to be limited to controlled objective points only. objective points reduced to 4 with one intermittent objective at the center.

at this point though the current dominion style would be lost, so perhaps it would be best to leave the crystal scar the way it is and add a new map to the dominion game mode. Otherwise you would lose the loyal lovers of the crystal scar and no one wants an entire map to simply disappear.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lessis

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
The soccer analogy is interesting, though I think basketball may be more apt. Soccer has one of the highest highs in all of sports, the goal. It also has a near non-existent entry barrier (do you have a ball? cool you can play soccer).

Maybe we should reduce Dom capture points to 2 and a team gains a point each time they cap one. Reset after cap. Soccminion? Doccer?

As for explanations, attitudes, support, etc. that's difficult to analyze and I feel like the conversation will just degenerate into arguing over a ranked queue. In the end, I think it's the players that decide whether or not something is popular. I know this isn't the response you want to hear and I'm sorry.
this is **** and you know it part of fixing a problem is admitting that you ****ed it up there is a list of **** you ****ed up that caused so many to run from this game mode it was the talk of the riot offices everyone was playing it and the second MLG said they were thinking of bringing it into the fold riot blew it up **** talked it to the ground and made it the un-cool thing to do pros jumped in and stamped it out the truth is riot killed this game mode on purpose to protect SR they saw it as a threat and nuked the **** out of it

turn on ranked wtf! does it harm anyone at riot to have it on? does giving people happiness hurt you so much you? riot used to be a company about the people in the game not the people who make the game when did this change?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Manse

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
The soccer analogy is interesting, though I think basketball may be more apt. Soccer has one of the highest highs in all of sports, the goal. It also has a near non-existent entry barrier (do you have a ball? cool you can play soccer).

Maybe we should reduce Dom capture points to 2 and a team gains a point each time they cap one. Reset after cap. Soccminion? Doccer?
Okay, let's talk hoops. Basketball is a flat gametype where the clock is always against the losing team. There is no comeback mechanic built into the mode except maybe fouling down the clock. The game revolves around very few general offenses (e.g. set, zone spread) and very few defenses (man, zone, combo). Yet the game gets very deep very quickly when you take into account individual skill and player synergy. A good point guard can control the flow of the game and get the ball to the heavy hitter/carry.

Has this been part of the discussion internally? Framing the discussion as "what is dominion like, what is good about dominion on its own?" instead of "what is different about SR that people like?"


Though you're probably trolling, We have/play a two-cap custom game called ARAB.


Quote:
As for explanations, attitudes, support, etc. that's difficult to analyze and I feel like the conversation will just degenerate into arguing over a ranked queue. In the end, I think it's the players that decide whether or not something is popular. I know this isn't the response you want to hear and I'm sorry.
While you're correct about it getting ugly here, I don't think it's "difficult to analyze" for a company like Riot. You have a massive team of people that can analyze this problem and are good at their job.

To continue the basketball analogy, we can look at the history of the NIT. The NIT is older than the NCAA tournament, and was (at a minimum) just as prestigious prior to 1950. Then, the NCAA shot the NIT in the foot and started pumping money and airtime into what has become the spectacle of The Big Dance.

Imagine if a company had an amazing game that was wall-to-wall action with a low entry barrier, backed it with a multi-channel marketing campaign, and developed it into some month-long, multi-million dollar monstrosity.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Manse

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldmanj View Post
in all honesty I think the biggest issue with dominion is its size. It is to easy to reach all the objectives quickly. It is a mess of go here there and everywhere constantly, guard here attack there fight now. Until there is a lull point or a real travel distance incorporated that flat game play is unlikely to change.

the layout and spawn mechanic enforces this very issue however. Other games that have cap point style objective modes thrive either by how and where you spawn, hidden and unknown elements regarding what is happening at each objective and in-between them, ratio of objectives to players and their locations, clear and concise goals and a straight forward method of achieving victory.

Dominion unfortunately fails in most of these areas.
You always spawn in the same spot
You always have full vision of all objectives
objectives are in a set and obvious pattern that funnel decisions
objectives are all captured in the same way with little to no terrain interaction
5 players on a team / 5 constant objective points
minion waves muddle priorities

I cant really see a way to really make dominion a multifaceted experience without it being completely overhauled and essentially start from scratch
The argument the Dom community is making is that "flat" gameplay is not inherently a bad feature (see the sports analogies I've already made). If you automatically assume that it's worse because it's different, we're at odds before we begin.

The reason I like Dominion is because there is no lull. It is always action. It's a lot of 51/49% decisions between engaging, disengaging, drawing out a fight, taking an objective, pressuring an objective, countering the pressure with your own capture/decap.

SR is like football. In an average 3-hour telecast, the ball is actually in play (snap to whistle) less than 15 minutes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ManWolfAxeBoss

QA Analyst

10-23-2013
3 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD Denz Brujah View Post
and there in lies a major problem!
Where are the Dom tutorials?
Where is the basic explanation of the meta
Ppl play Dom for the first time thinking its SR
and it isnt and when the initial experience is poor it taints their view forever

First Impressions are also the most important
and on this Riot has set Dom up to fail
I agree there's plenty that could be done not only for Dominion, but also TT and HA.

As an aside, there's no need for bold text. Everyone's post will be read.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Coldmanj

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manse View Post
The argument the Dom community is making is that "flat" gameplay is not inherently a bad feature (see the sports analogies I've already made). If you automatically assume that it's worse because it's different, we're at odds before we begin.

The reason I like Dominion is because there is no lull. It is always action. It's a lot of 51/49% decisions between engaging, disengaging, drawing out a fight, taking an objective, pressuring an objective, countering the pressure with your own capture/decap.

SR is like football. In an average 3-hour telecast, the ball is actually in play (snap to whistle) less than 15 minutes.
I dont consider it worse because it is different. I used to play dominion a ton when it was young and before everything settled in. After people had played it for a while though it was the same thing every match... fight for the windmill. the novelty was lost at that point for me. I saw the flaws in the maps size and enjoyed it less and less. at one point i just sat around in the middle and waited for someone to get into a needless fight at a point leaving one of theirs defenseless and would just take that one, rinse and repeat. this doesnt happen when 2 actual pre made teams play but there isnt a queue for that so it was just a pub game every time for me.

the current dominion isnt bad per say, but it could be better. what you are saying is not wrong either and i wasnt out to try and say they were. I was simply comparing this model to similar models used in other games.

I guess I am also confused as to what the dominion community is hoping to have done. and if Riot is on the same page as that community


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
I agree there's plenty that could be done not only for Dominion, but also TT and HA.

As an aside, there's no need for bold text. Everyone's post will be read.
I think Denz just likes being bold MWAB.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mi ramfan

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I would play more Dominion if it had ranked. Even if it was just ranked 5s, there doesn't have to be a solo queue. Most of the time my friends' schedules prevent us from doing ranked 5s on SR because it's so time consuming, but if there was at least ranked Dominion that we could earn season rewards for I'd play it a lot more.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dessembrae

Senior Member

10-23-2013

From the perspective of a very rare Dominion player, the issue I find with Dominion as a whole is the lack of any real sense of satisfaction after securing a kill or capturing a point.

In SR, I manage to outmaneuver an enemy Ezreal as Kha'Zix and kill him in his own jungle while making my escape after evading the enemy jungler and the support who came to his rescue. While in Dominion, I secure a kill and immediately forget about it.

Again, when I capture a point, I don't really take any real satisfaction from it since all I am thinking in my mindset is how do I hold this point for as long as I can before either dying, or simply abandoning it to take another one when the enemy comes to reclaim it. I don't get the same feeling when defending a tower in SR 1v3 since I know that the tower is critically important and if I fail, that tower will fall, the enemy will have a larger map presence, and they just took a massive amount of gold.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stez007

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I would look at Infinite Crisis' mid capture point as a good place to start for a new objective.

The basic idea is its a capture point that, when taken, spawns one super minion for each unowned capture point. The minions spawn in the mid-point and move toward the unowned points through the jungle.

This center objective helps convey the idea that its better to stay in the jungle to defend points; as it is now people only know that if they're told to do so or they've done the research.