@Morello, About gold income for junglers/supports

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aperson1

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That's a direction argument, because you don't weight the costs of extreme freedom for anyone to do anything. We focus much more on tactical play combined with strategy, which drives a different set of decisions.

If you want to farm the jungle, then you should choose a character who wants to farm the jungle and buy an item that makes you super good at that. With that gold, choose what new items you buy. The choice lives in the income expression, not the acceleration method. You need Smite because it's something we added to the game that players found invaluable - should we force that out for the sake of directionless variety?

As long as the construct is "objectives matter," then Smite will always be a must pick. A guy who kills monsters with high health will like that spell.
By forcing junglers and supports into specific item paths, don't you eliminate a lot of strategic counter-building and build diversity that top laners and mid laners enjoy? Or do you feel the paths they are going to be given will feel diverse enough already?


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batliff

Member

10-23-2013

Since you are increasing gold revenue, won't that mean games might get shorter since the power increase in player items will help take down objectives faster. In my opinion taking towers and inhibitors down is easy.

This is just personal preference but it would be nice it towers scaled for each tier you take down. And taking them down is as difficult at every stage of the game. I like it when games go 6 item builds and it's not about the gold disparity and more about tactics and skill.


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exec3

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That's a direction argument, because you don't weight the costs of extreme freedom for anyone to do anything. We focus much more on tactical play combined with strategy, which drives a different set of decisions.

If you want to farm the jungle, then you should choose a character who wants to farm the jungle and buy an item that makes you super good at that. With that gold, choose what new items you buy. The choice lives in the income expression, not the acceleration method. You need Smite because it's something we added to the game that players found invaluable - should we force that out for the sake of directionless variety?

As long as the construct is "objectives matter," then Smite will always be a must pick. A guy who kills monsters with high health will like that spell.
I don't think the issue is Smite is must pick on junglers as much as Flash is must pick on everyone leaving only 1 real choice on summoner spell for players except junglers who have no choice unless they want to be ballsy and not take flash.

Last time you spoke on Flash you didn't have a problem with everyone taking it. Is that still your opinion? I and many others would still like to have options opened up for summoner spells. I've said it before but perhaps Flash needs to be made a basic spell that everyone has like recall so we can have real choice on what two summoner spells we can take again. About the only change i've seen in summoner spells for like a year has been barrier replacing ignite.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperson1 View Post
By forcing junglers and supports into specific item paths, don't you eliminate a lot of strategic counter-building and build diversity that top laners and mid laners enjoy?
Yep, which is why everyone in solo queue generally fights over these two roles. They are the most fun roles because they are the least restricted roles or the ADC since the ADC is the easiest role to play.


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nosafterburn

Senior Member

10-23-2013

To quickly derail this discussion I would like to say, "Hi Morello. How are you today (besides a little busy)? Is everyone there in crazy mode now that the season is almost over? Thanks for the fun game."


Derailment is now over. Please, continue with your discussion.


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Partholonian

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Anything that is forced is unsatisfying. ADC's have CHOICE in their damage items at least. Junglers are forced down 1 path, the Machette. They have no options.
Currently there are people that jungle without machete. I'm a bit concerned that the jungle changes will end up making that nonviable, but as long as the *champions* are still good in the jungle, I think we can deal with it. Some of them may only be shunning the machete because they don't like any of its upgrade paths on their champion anyway; the Wriggle's branch is not well regarded ATM and manaless junglers feel inefficient taking any of the Spirit Stone paths.

Quote:
They are forced to take smite, they have no option to take Barrier, Exhaust, Ignite.
There are 2 summoner skill slots. IMO a big part of the reason junglers don't feel free to take Exhaust (or other summoner spells, but Exhaust has great ganking potential) is Flash. It's just too good even on a multi-minute CD, *especially* in the jungle where there are walls everywhere.

As for Smite itself, I'd like to see the result of removing it as a summoner spell and moving it to a unique item active shared by Machete and all its upgrades. (Wriggle's is probably being reworked anyway and so are vision items in general, so I'm not that concerned about the potential conflict with its current active. Of course, that's easy for me to say.)

Tying junglers to an item/item family is better than tying them to an item *and* a summoner spell, or even just tying them to a summoner spell (there are more item slots, and you can sell an item and replace it). That would give all junglers an extra summoner spell to gank with (since presumably you wouldn't often burn a summoner spell on monsters unless it was one that couldn't be used any other way) while still keeping the strategic aspects of smite securing/smite stealing.

There has to be some way of specializing in the jungle or people would just wander in and out opportunistically and the strategy space would be diminished. Machete is cheap and has lots of upgrade branches already, although the Madred's one could stand to be improved or given more manaless options.


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Dr Croustillant

Junior Member

10-23-2013

While waiting for Morello, you guys might like reading this :
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...eason_changes/

Edit : it comes from the top players that are in 'secret mission' for Riot.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-23-2013
37 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Sorry but I call Bull. You focus is on appeasing the masses with EZ mode options since you are unable to communicate to the players how to play for themselves. Hence you have a Button for securing objectives, hence you enforce the top/mid/adc/jungle/support meta and anything, anything that appears which contests it you squash instantly.

There is no strategy derived from restriction. Freedom breeds creativity, creativity breeds strategy, strategy provides depth. What you are doing and have done is adding needless complexity and that is not depth. Forcing players to have a jungler, forcing them to remain the jungler, that isn't tactical in the slightest.

When it comes to direction, you have been lost for 3 years.



Which depending on the type of jungler you are should be a item suited to the champion NOT the role. Jungler isn't a role, its a style. Sure some champions are better at this style of play than others, just like some champions are better at supporting than others. However there is no reason a support shouldn't be allowed to build AP if it had the gold to do so provided that is the strategy they wanted to execute.

Having jungle items that are only good at jungling means you are inferior to champions with items that are designed for fighting champions. This is why the "popular" junglers atm are the ones that break your fragile system and start with a Dorans blade, an item that doesn't restrict them.


No, smite will always be a must pick while it exists. You can't pick something that doesn't exist. The counter to smite is smite, remove smite and players will have to depend on their own skill to secure objects instead of the "Free Buff button" while also allowing them to be more useful endgame and more aggressive early.
The smite argument holds up a bit here, I'll agree. There's nuance here, but I'll call up the statement that illustrates why we will not agree on this issue on a high level;

Quote:
There is no strategy derived from restriction. Freedom breeds creativity, creativity breeds strategy, strategy provides depth.
This makes two logical fallacies that make this a non-universally true statement;

* We care about the other, individual player's experience (you don't get to be outpick someone at champ select and **** on them in lane for 15 minutes). This is important, but not the point I'll discuss.

* Full freedom does not make a more strategic game. In fact, restrictions can create strategies that optimize and use those restrictions. Is football a strategically shallow game because it has a single Quarterback? Is Chess an unstrategic game because you can't freely modify your pieces? Is Magic a weak strategic game because of 4-per deck limits and mana curves?

Full freedom, instead, says that the experience is about discovering and trying a large variety of strategies, and how they interact would be emergent. This creates a very chaotic (which can be very fun!) experience that focuses on that chaos as the primary engagement point. The cost of that is a completely unbalanced game where there's no expectation of having a good or fair experience. Chances to lose before the game starts. Lack of satisfaction from not having any clarity around what success might look like. This is fine, but is not what League of Legends is or wants to be.

Instead, we think it's not OK to tell linemen they don't get to be on a team, and embrace that if you sack the guy with the ball, you made a big play. Teamwork, strategy and tactics are not a myopic definition of "complete, total freedom to do what I want" anymore than Counter Strike should embrace GTA-type fun to increase options and variety.

Strategy is important, but League's expression of that differs than previous MOBA purposefully and unapologetically. Smite on Cooldown? That's a new decision set to make when thinking on Dragon. Enemy bought a Wriggle's to farm up on Yi? We better go deal with him. IMO, far more actually interesting than "Yi bought a Blasting Wand instead of a Pickaxe."

So I don't think we've been lost for three years, I think you've wanted a different game for that long. And that's OK, but this is always been how League's been different, and we're not going to shy away from that - and instead add strategic depth in ways that actually create meaningful in-game decisions.


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Rozzeta

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're adding total gold to the game. That new gold is not designed to be funneled into other characters. Instead, you, as a support, should use that gold to better help your team (which has other associated changes to make this better).
Sorry Morello, but this doesn't address the issue. Supports are probably the characters who benefit the least from stats, but work better without without items than other characters do, or at least that was before the heavy nerfing.

An Annie with a some AP will be better than a Sona with a some AP. The damage potential plus on demand stun beat her 120 CD stunt and 0.7 two target attack, leaving Sona's only advantage that she can heal all damage out of battle (in battle, is questionable due to low amount, and W aura was nerfed to quite pathetic amounts)

I'd suppose you'd want to address it with that scaling utility issue, but how will that even work? Like current Taric's Shatter? Or will we now have supports with little to no scaling and all stats going to increase utility?

I'm certainly concerned that this scaling utility thing will become something like the abilities of pre rework Karma. You'd think a champion able to increase her skills to level 6 was something really cool and powerful, but since everything was balanced around her ultimate, a level 6 skill non enhanced was weaker than another character's level 5 skill, meaning she had to use an extra point to achieve a level that was still below others if not increased.
What I mean with this is that with scaling utility, all their base effects are going to go down for obvious reasons, and then they'll need items to achieve a level of knockup, slow, stun, etc... that probably mage champions could do by simply having leveled the skill, or even on level 1 for one point wonders. I don't really see how will this be balanced.


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Sir Snicklefritz

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Morello, would a way to improve jungling be an ability to decrease enemy counter-jungling while increasing your ability to counter-jungle?

Let's say you have some item/mastery/etc that when a jungle camp is killed by only you, the jungle camp would then have two separate spawn times:

It would spawn in X seconds but only when the jungler approached it, or it would spawn normally at Y seconds where Y > X.

If you are in your opponents jungle, the camp would normally spawn after Y seconds, but if the jungler with the counter-jungle masteries kills the camp, it would spawn in Z seconds where Z > Y > X. Or instead of spawning after Z seconds, it will spawn in Y seconds after the enemy is aware the camp has been stolen.

This would increase jungler gold by having fewer stolen camps from the enemy (and if it is stolen, it has significant game impact) and faster respawns of the camps. The base respawn times could be increased to limit allies from taking the camps from the jungle.

X (Improved Jungle Spawn Rate) < (Current Spawn Rate) < Y (New base spawn rate) < Z (Counter-jungle Spawn Rate)