Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
16 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Dragon View Post
I would like to add that I believe it should be emphasized that Spartans thrive in battle. Just like the movie 300, Pantheon should be THRILLED to engage many enemies, and I believe it would be thematically appropriate for him to get buffs depending on the amount of enemy champions nearby.
I like this a lot. No clue how it would impact balance, but thematically, this is brilliant.


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CQReborn

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Might seem out of place, but Pantheon isn't in half as bad a spot as Gangplank. I wish he'd get some attention..his entire kit is so clunky and restrictive compared to every champion that comes out absolutely loaded to the nines with free mobility and bonus mechanics. Meanwhile GP can't even use his E while moving.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I like this a lot. No clue how it would impact balance, but thematically, this is brilliant.
Takes fewer attacks to build up his passive based on enemies nearby?


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
17 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
Takes fewer attacks to build up his passive based on enemies nearby?
Possibly, but that means it takes more attacks to build it up without enemies nearby, which is a direct nerf to jungle and solo lane pantheon.

Cool thought though


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Zukuu1

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Disclaimer: still not a designer, and still not working on Pantheon in any way, merely a Pantheon enthusiast.

One of the repeated themes from this conversation is that Pantheon is positioned weirdly between a bruiser and an Assassin. His passive suggests auto-attack trading bruiser, but his lack of escapes, and other defensive steroids cause him to explode when focused in a teamfight, and he's particularly susceptible to peels because he only has 1 gap closer, and his full rotation takes 3 seconds to pull off.

I feel like this is a valid point. His base stats (other than move speed) aren't particularly impressive, so even though his AD ratios are absurd, it feels like you cannot utilize them because of how risky engaging with him is. Many people have offered the suggestion that we improve or buff his Aegis in teamfights, and although I don't know how we would do that without dramatically increasing his power level, that seems like a good direction to explore. The question that brings up is whether that can be done in a way which solidifies his role in either direction, or if simply buffing both is a good thing (I doubt that it is tbh).

A second concern is that his early game feels abusive to play against for players who don't counterpick (this is likely a bigger problem in blind pick than draft mode, which is what I play most). The general feeling is that his strong early game requires a relatively weaker late game.

I think this is part of what differentiates Pantheon from other picks. Generally speaking, Pantheon isn't picked for his late game prowess, or even his ability to blow up an ADC. There are definitely other champions that do that better. That said, very few can apply a similar amount of global pressure. This relative power level throughout the game provides different strategic options for a Pantheon pick, and/or team composition including him. I don't have a clear answer as to how to balance these things, but my bigger question is should we? Would moving Pantheon out of his role as lane bully that falls off improve the game and the options you have as a player? Or does that role fit within LoL? I don't honestly know but I think the pros outweigh the cons in this particular case.
Making him an effective bruiser would make him so much better to play with, and against. His itemization would also greatly benefit from it and you have legit choices to get different defense items for different situations, instead of "another longsword" as solution to everything.

I'd happily trade a bit of his damage for a more worthwhile late game (and a better mana/manareg threshold). You can also easily cap his harras potential by making him an energy champion, or give him another resource. That way his high damage is not infinite as long as he has mana pots.

If he gets the stuff he needs to become a good offensive bruiser, it would make him less of a hassle to play against, but also means he can actually escape/survive a fight at will. Champs that ONLY have any use in early games are not worthwhile in LOL's current meta. Matches don't tend to be over within 15 minutes or even 20, unless the opponents surrendered or you're in LCS and get outplayed like hell. LeBlanc has the same problem ans rarely sees play due to that.
A strong early game can lead to a weaker late game, I'm fine with that, but not a flat-out WEAK late game. It needs to be balanced out better. Pantheon's pros don't out weight his cons tho. He really has only a few prominent pros (damage, no skill shots) and a HUGE amount of cons (e.g. manathreshold+dependency, squishyness, disengage, can be kited easily etc etc)


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Possibly, but that means it takes more attacks to build it up without enemies nearby, which is a direct nerf to jungle and solo lane pantheon.

Cool thought though
What if it was reduced by 1 attack per 2 champions so it's 4 stacks at 0 or 1 champions, 3 stacks at 2 or 3 champions, and 2 stacks at 4 or 5 champions? Then you don't need to nerf Pantheon at all! Unless it would imbalance him too much?


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Zukuu1

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
What if it was reduced by 1 attack per 2 champions so it's 4 stacks at 0 or 1 champions, 3 stacks at 2 or 3 champions, and 2 stacks at 4 or 5 champions? Then you don't need to nerf Pantheon at all! Unless it would imbalance him too much?
You'd still need to attack / cast. If they're on you, no AA block will help you to stay alive. Also, in team fights you get the majority of damage from other sources, like spells and AoEs most of the time.

My idea from a few pages back would not make a difference to lane pantheon, but not would make him much more sturdy when it counts in team fights.

Quote:
After his passive proccs (or using W), he receives % less damage (or scaling with armor/m.res) from other sources other than the source that activated it. e.g. Vayne procs the passive with the first shot. The 2nd shot still deals 100% damage. Riven's auto attack now deals a bit less damage and so does Ahri's spell. Could scale with level or the level of W, so it doesn't affect the early game in terms of his defense, but makes a greater impact late game when you.


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sarcasmsmurf

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I like this a lot. No clue how it would impact balance, but thematically, this is brilliant.
every enemy champion will add one more AA block to his passive...

we have created a teamfight monster!!!!


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alexmf2

Senior Member

10-23-2013

As a Pantheon player, I thought I should add my 2 cents.
If we are going to change Pantheon, we need to keep these things in order for him to still imho feel like Pantheon:

-Brutal lane bully with very few bad matchups
-One of the best 1v1ers in the game
-His ult
-His passive and the plays you can make with it (aka the 3-in-a-row shield)

These four things you gotta keep if you want Pantheon to still be, well, Pantheon.


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Naziru

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Hello RiotFpMcgee, I am glad to see someone showing some interest in my favorite spear happy spartan. I have been a Pantheon top main for much of the current season and he is my most played by a fairly large margin.My personal thoughts on Pantheons current design is that he isn't overpowered in lane so much as extremely good at capitalizing on an enemies mistakes or momentary lapses in judgement due to his high burst combo, passive block, and resetting W. It is very easy to bait an enemy into a 1-3lvl fight they think they can win only to have two consecutive attacks blocked turning the fight completely around and by the time they have realized what happened they are either dead or forced out of lane. This of course is extremely unfun for the enemy player and the source of much of his hate in the community but to be honest it was a result of their premature engage an assuming they learned from it shouldn't happen over and over again. Most players don't seem to learn from it though and will proceed to get back into lane and immediately reengage the 80% health Panth thinking "surely it won't happen again" only to have the exact same thing happen again. He basically has one of the highest amounts of synergy in his kit, properly ordering your skills means the difference between getting a kill and getting killed, especially early game where his passive reset is most significant and I would be really disappointed if any changes messed with that synergy. Example your Panth vs Lee midgame, you have 2 stacks on your passive and lee just leapt in with Q, you can W immediately into Q and E hopefully backing him off with your burst but wasting your previous stacks, you could Q and E into W taking some extra initial damage but hopefully baiting him into a sustained fight your likely to win, you could Q then AA once and W following up with E in hopes of killing him with the E burst. Few characters have this kind of flexibility in their combos with each combo having its own strengths and weaknesses and which one you choose and when is really what sets a great Pantheon apart from a good one(imo).

The single biggest thought I had regarding bringing up his teamfight without increasing his lane would be to update his lore to make his shield magic. This serves two purposes, 1. it explains the magic damage and AP scaling on his W, 2. it allows you to put a new passive on it to up his survivability or utility without increasing his damage. My initial thought would be something along the lines of "Reduces CD by X(5-10%?) amount for every enemy/ally in its range" or perhaps "Gains one bonus use per nearby ally/enemy stacking X(3 maybe? like one per ult level) charges until out of combat, cannot trigger on the same target twice within X(say 10-30) seconds" thereby increasing his usefulness in teamfights by allowing him multiple stuns, and therefore more utility, without actually increasing his already pretty high damage potential in exchange for losing his current W passive reset slightly reducing his engage survivability to offset the change.

Thematically it makes sense because more than anything else the defining feature of a spartan warrior(or any greek soldier from the phalanx era) is not his spear or his armor but his SHIELD and making it an enchanted shield of some sort(perhaps something as simple as it is empowered by the ancestral spirits of his family since shields were generally considered family heirlooms and passed down from generation to generation) gives a way of explaining in Lore terms his magic damage dealing shield bash as well as perhaps being what allows him to jump hundreds of feet in a single leap.

TLDR: Make his shield a magic heirloom of some sort, explaining away its magic damage and his ult, and allowing the addition of a passive to increase his late game teamfight presence without touching his early and mid game power curve in exchange for losing his current W shield reset(if necessary).