Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Dyto

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I want to respond to real concerns and get real feedback, and give my perspective. There's a difference between constructive dialog and disagreement and non-beneficial snipes.

Thanks to all the people who have weighed in, especially other Pantheon players who clearly have a variety of different experiences and expecations.
Respond to my post please, legit concerns.


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Taliesin

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Hey RiotFpMcgee, just wanted to pass along my thanks for discussing this kind of stuff with the players. Don't let the negative minority get to you.

I really like the idea of taking W's scaling and switching/adding armor scaling to it. It'd reward building defense (appropriate on an all-in champion without a disengage like Panth) while also being extremely thematic for the ability. It's a shield bash, after all! Alongside this change, I'd like to see it deal physical damage instead of magic. Panth doesn't have enough AP ratios for it to be a valid build, so this would help to narrow his focus build-wise, while also making building Armor Pen feel more impactful.

I'd also like to see some interaction between his Q and the rest of his kit. As it is, it's just a spammable point-and-click poke. It's boring. The idea I'd like would be something like this: reduce the damage on it slightly (maybe 10%?). But then, add a passive to it. Any time that Aegis Protection is triggered, give him a window where he can throw an enhanced spear (3 seconds?). Call it something like Return Strike. This Spear Shot would deal enhanced damage (20%?) and would slow the target momentarily. Adding this kind of play would make the ability feel more interactive, an improvement over the mindless spear spam we tend to see right now.


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bestlow

Junior Member

10-23-2013

why doesn't one of you guys who thinks that Pantheon is underpowered play RiotFpMcgee and see how he does it because is my opinion Pantheon is just fine.


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
15 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyto View Post
Respond to my post please, legit concerns.
Your concerns are legit, but I think I did...My opinion is that Pantheon occupies a fairly unique space. You think it's unhealthy and toxic, I think otherwise.

Probably the biggest difference as that we have different perspectives on the amount of counterplay. In a 1 v 1 situation, I agree with you. Outside of a few matchups, Pantheon has the ability to be a brutally effective lane bully.

What I think is equally important to look at though, is that the game is 5 v 5. Junglers can gank, and with no escapes, Pantheon is left in a dangerous position. Lane swaps are feasible, different builds work (cloth armor + 5 pot for example) and as you noted, his late game doesn't have the same power level as his early game.

Does that mean we shouldn't change him? No. But it does mean that there's more to consider than simply his 1 v 1 lane strength.

Does that perspective make sense?


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Merlin the Tuna

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Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Would moving Pantheon out of his role as lane bully that falls off improve the game and the options you have as a player? Or does that role fit within LoL?
I don't think there's a need to move him out of this role, but there's definitely room to make it less extreme. As it stands, it sort of feels like your job as Pantheon is to get first blood before the enemy jungler shows up in your lane, because as soon as you fall behind you're basically out of the game.


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Samflash3

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Here is my suggestion for Pantheon. Remove the refresh shield from W and let him get his shield when he deals damage to enemy champions . That way in teamfights, he gets rewarded with a shield when he goes with his ult to initiate, when he hits enemies with his E, and not to be dependant on a massive cooldown.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
The question that brings up is whether that can be done in a way which solidifies his role in either direction, or if simply buffing both is a good thing (I doubt that it is tbh).
To be honest, I think bruiser Pantheon is just the route you go when you have no other choice due to bad lane phase or team comp reasons. Therefore, I think Panth's niche should be that of an early/mid game assassin which specializes in lane phase.

With this in mind, the first thing that doesn't quite fit is his passive. Not only is it more fit for a bruiser/fighter, but it's also a good part of what makes Pantheon a frustrating champ to lane against.

I would remove it, change it for a better version of E's passive (as suggensted on my previous post), and trade that loss of early game strength for a buff to other aspects of his kit. Some suggestions would be to let Panth move while channeling his E and splitting the channel time of his ult (2 sec channel, then you choose the locations, and 1.5 sec jump time).


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Priamos

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Eh, Panth isn't too much of a lane bully at mid (in the sense that Darius or Renekton is a toplane bully, for example), though he punishes some lanes really badly. The problem is that most midlaners have defensive capabilities and range against him (the ones that don't, like Fizz, get slaughtered).

Thus, the most successful Diamond Pantheon players play relatively tight, drawish lanes at mid (though LoCicero has been experimenting with DBlade starts/Lifesteal Quints and going Yolo Ham). What makes Pantheon an earlygame bully is his ultimate's ability to pressure botlane, combined with his extremely powerful skirmishing. When paired with a Vayne or a Kog'Maw or something, you can easily carry him/her/it to lategame.


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Mechanikatt

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Does that mean we shouldn't change him? No. But it does mean that there's more to consider than simply his 1 v 1 lane strength.

Does that perspective make sense?
You're right in that perspective in my eyes.

Or, as I phrased it in my huge post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanikatt View Post
Pantheon may be strong, but only to squishy enemies. His passive may be 100% block, but only to attacks (or spells that mimic attacks such as Ezreal's Mystic Shot). The fact that he has no real escape (Zed has his shadow, Kassadin has slow + ult, Ahri has charm + ult, Talon has slow + ult, etc) means he's very vulnerable to ganks, but suggestions like "make his W be able to jump to allies" feels wrong thematically. Pantheon will outright destroy virtually anyone 1v1 (excluding some specific cases as RiotFpMcgee mentioned), but has zero tools to escape when HE'S the victim. There's the counterplay against his powerful early. A counterplay that is almost trivial in any serious team, which is why Pantheon is so immensely underplayed in tournaments.


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Dyto

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Your concerns are legit, but I think I did...My opinion is that Pantheon occupies a fairly unique space. You think it's unhealthy and toxic, I think otherwise.

Probably the biggest difference as that we have different perspectives on the amount of counterplay. In a 1 v 1 situation, I agree with you. Outside of a few matchups, Pantheon has the ability to be a brutally effective lane bully.

What I think is equally important to look at though, is that the game is 5 v 5. Junglers can gank, and with no escapes, Pantheon is left in a dangerous position. Lane swaps are feasible, different builds work (cloth armor + 5 pot for example) and as you noted, his late game doesn't have the same power level as his early game.

Does that mean we shouldn't change him? No. But it does mean that there's more to consider than simply his 1 v 1 lane strength.

Does that perspective make sense?
See I understand this thinking, my biggest concern really is that 90% of the community feels pantheon needs late game nerfs and I cant imagine a world in which pantheon remains as ungodly strong early game and also gets late game buffs. Does that make sense? Counterpick can only work 9 slots outof 10, so if panth gets favorable matchup top he wins lane without a chance to stop him. Jungler has to camp him and other lanes then are free to pressure.

The problem is there is too much change in playstyle for entire teams with pantheon around, he either wins solo lane without a chance to fight back and you lose one solo lane for sure and he probably snowballs other lanes OR you camp him 100% of the first 20 minutes to shut him down and every other lane is destroyed. He has the same problem as shaco, you either spend 4 times the normal amount on pinks to counter him or you lose to him early.

I just want to know, riot won't buff his late game without balancing his early game.