Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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DemiluniS

Senior Member

10-23-2013

the gameplay against patheon is really not "engaging", it's just frustrating and toxic, everytime you getting in range you getting a spear in your face without any option to outplay it, as a melee when you trying to engage on him you getting blocked by his passive and usually losing the trade. I wouldn't even call his early gameplay powerful, it's just so frustrating and lacks counterplay.
adding depth and counterplay to his kit would be a great idea.


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Mjolnir802

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Here's where I'll probably take some flack...

I think the differentiation between good Pantheons and average Pantheons is massive. Proper usage of his passive, knowing the exact damage quantities at which an all-in is an option, modifying your build to deal with a variety of different lane matchups...The actual gameplay may feel somewhat binary (that I don't disagree with) but the metagame around playing as and against Pantheon is extremely engaging in my opinion.

Knowing if/when to trade, how to respond, how to play against a semi-global pressure...

I think Pantheon is non-binary, and very healthy for the 5 v 5 strategic game. He may have problems with feel in the tactical game though.
I agree with this, but I feel some changes could be made to open up Pantheons itemization. Right now it feels like you have to build straight damage, win lane, ans snowball before falling off after 40 minutes. Building tanking items doesnt feel very rewarding, and there are some items that seem like they would fit well on Panth that just dont(Muramana).

Im going to keep pushing the idea for the damage on W to scale off armor. This opens up items like sunfire or randuins to be more useful on Panth. There were also suggestions to up Panths base mana as well as his mana costs to make Muramana more effective.


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nacholikesthed View Post
I agree 100% with this. Pantheon is a Champion with very simple mechanics, but that doesn't mean there is no complexity to mastering him. He's a Champion that demands constant decision making with few possibilities of backing off if you make the wrong choice.

However, I do feel that his itemization is only variable early game. As the game progresses, buying almost all AD is necessary to remaining relevant. This happens because of his poor scaling as the game progresses. In my opinion, switching some of his power from early to late game, would open different build paths, since now you wouldn't be forced to buy mostly AD.
he doesn't need switch in power from his early game to late game, he need a complete remake to add counterplay to his kit, cuz with the amount of frustration in playing against him early game,his late game just can't be strong


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
11 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
All i can say is that i seriously hope your dont get a hand in balancing or reworking him, youre clearly too biased to see the big picture.
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.
if you want to drive a discussion can you please answer me what you find engaging playing against pantheon early game? especially mid lane as a mage or an assasin?


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Cpt Shaq Sparrow

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.
I think a NICER way to say what he was saying... It sounds like you have a romantic view on Pantheon, seeing many positives in his kit and thinking he has some good qualities when he may need to be uprooted. I think he's just worried that people who love Pantheon as he is would be against fixing his core issues.

Most importantly is I think the passive. Even though I love playing with it and using it intelligently, Nacholikesthed is right - it fits a bruiser more than an assassin and it might need to go from the kit, and I would have no problem with it leaving if it fixes Pantheon for the better.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir802 View Post
I agree with this, but I feel some changes could be made to open up Pantheons itemization. Right now it feels like you have to build straight damage, win lane, ans snowball before falling off after 40 minutes. Building tanking items doesnt feel very rewarding, and there are some items that seem like they would fit well on Panth that just dont(Muramana).

Im going to keep pushing the idea for the damage on W to scale off armor. This opens up items like sunfire or randuins to be more useful on Panth. There were also suggestions to up Panths base mana as well as his mana costs to make Muramana more effective.
I agree with your first statement, but no with the W suggestion. First of all, what is Pantheon supposed to be, an assassin or a bruiser? If the answer is assassin, the an armor scaling would be completely out of place. The best way to open itemization on Pantheon is to make him scale better into lategame (at the cost of some early game power). This would allow Pantheon players to buy something other than damage.


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Labcown

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
All i can say is that i seriously hope your dont get a hand in balancing or reworking him, youre clearly too biased to see the big picture.

Also. A tactical game and a strategic game is the exact aame thing lol, literally identical meanings.
Tactical and Strategic have two different meanings in this context. A Strategic Game is more about theory-crafting and plans to use BEFORE the battle. Our Strategy is to Protect-The-Kog'maw, or Let Nasus stack farm all game, those are strategies.

Tactics begin when you get in the game. If your Kog'maw goes 0/11/9, your original plan of protecting kog might need some readjusting on the fly, which would be a tactical shift. Tactics also include the smaller actions, like juking, objective grabbing, targeting a certain player, etc.

Basically TL;DR - Strategy is what you think about on paper, and Tactics are everything that happens on the field, I.E. Panth falls behind because he's such a snowbally character, and thus his tactical game feels weak because of it.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.
Some of us like having a discussion about champions we like, and we appreciate your interest and contributions.


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
12 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
if you want to drive a discussion can you please answer me what you find engaging playing against pantheon early game? especially early game as a mage or an assasin?
Sure!

1. Pantheon is very strongly gated early game by his mana costs. My 2 starting builds are either faerie Charm + 3 hp/3 mp pots + ward, or long sword + 1 hp/1 mp. My all in capability is MUCH stronger with the 2nd, but my sustained harass is much stronger in the first. Playing as or vs a Shen/Malphite/Cho/Renekton dramatically changes this dynamic depending upon what i'm trying to accomplish, and my role on the team. Playing AGAINST this, I know the questions I'm considering as a pantheon player, and my decisions as to how to manage my resources, and whether I'm going to try to outlast his mana pool, bait a hard engage then have my jungler gank.

2. I try not to play mages against pantheon, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Mages like Malzahar (safe farming with E) or Swain (sustain from ultimate, point and click slow/damage, really likes catalyst and Zhonya's). Other matchups don't go as well, but that's sort of Pantheon's role: the ability to counter and dominate many mid-mages.

Knowing that Pantheon is a champion that is perceived to fall off, does knowing that change your perspective for playing against him? Or does that fall by the wayside due to frustration when you're actually playing against him?