Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Nuclear Dragon

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eph289 View Post
I'd rather see Pantheon get some more nuance to his kit. There's not a whole lot of depth to him, he either can fight and win a trade with you using targeted abilities, or he pokes at you with Spear Shot until the first case occurs, or he zones you. In the event these decision matrices fail, he simply does nothing but jump in and die.
I agree. He needs more depth. This is a major cause for concern in his kit primarily during the laning phase. 2 targeted abilities and a another point-blank cone after a gap-closing stun doesn't leave a whole lot of room to differentiate between average and good Pantheons.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

As a Pantheon main with about 500 ranked games with him on S3, his problem is that he's really oudated compared to newer champs. He is supposed to be an AD caster assassin yet some of his skills are meant to be for a bruiser, a role which just doesn't fit him. Updating him would mean more than just teaking some numbers, this are my suggested changes:

Passive: His current passive is fitting for a bruiser that scales off AS (like Jax), but Pantheon is an AD CASTER ASSASSIN, which makes it really awkward on him. Changing it would allow us to shift some of his early game power to his lategame, thus improving his scaling.

My suggestion is to remove the current passive and replace it with a modified version of the E passive. Make it increase damage from all abilities by a percentage (30% for example) on enemies below 35% HP. This alone would make Pantheon less annoying in lane (weaker tower dives, no blocks), while making him scale better lategame.

W: Needs to scale off AD, with a low scaling (25% of bonus AD?). Also, I think that if we want to add counterplay to Pantheon, this should be a skillshot, which in turn would give more utility to the champ. Some form of damage mitigation could be added here when Pantheon hits an enemy champ.

Also, I would increase the cooldown since now it can be used as an escape.

E: He is supposed to be a mobile assasin and thus shouldn't root himself with his primary damage skill. It should remain a channeled ability, while letting him move at 50% speed. The passive is removed now that he has a new main passive.

R: Being an assassin, he is not supposed to initiate with his ultimate, it is meant to be a positioning skill that shines in the laning phase. In my opinion, the main problem with it are the huge mana cost for a caster with a low mana pool, and the fact that you need to choose the landing location 3.5 secs in advance, which is A LOT. I would make it scale with AD, lower the damage to at least half, and make it a 2 sec charge after which you choose the landing destination, and then takes 1.5 sec more to arrive.

Overall, I think these changes would make him less annoying to lane against (no passive blocks), add counterplay by adding a skillshot, and allow him to scale better lategame thanks to his new passive.

Let me know what you think


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009Deathwolf

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Can Pantheon's ult have a shorter cast time between activating and actual landing. And can his abilites get some cooldown reduction or resets when he kills or assists in killing?


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Kbalz

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nacholikesthed View Post
E: He is supposed to be a mobile assasin and thus shouldn't root himself with his primary damage skill. It should remain a channeled ability, while letting him move at 50% speed. The passive is removed now that he has a new main passive.
I like this, kind of like Lucian's Ultimate. I can't tell you how many times that I've had to cancel my HSS (E) before all three pulses are complete because my target it out of range and getting away. Allow Pantheon movement, or perhaps apply a slow to the all affected would help stick better.


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009Deathwolf

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbalz View Post
I like this, kind of like Lucian's Ultimate. I can't tell you how many times that I've had to cancel my HSS (E) before all three pulses are complete because my target it out of range and getting away. Allow Pantheon movement, or perhaps apply a slow to the all affected would help stick better.
i agree he needs to be allowed to move or atleast slow the target!


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
10 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Dragon View Post
I agree. He needs more depth. This is a major cause for concern in his kit primarily during the laning phase. 2 targeted abilities and a another point-blank cone after a gap-closing stun doesn't leave a whole lot of room to differentiate between average and good Pantheons.
Here's where I'll probably take some flack...

I think the differentiation between good Pantheons and average Pantheons is massive. Proper usage of his passive, knowing the exact damage quantities at which an all-in is an option, modifying your build to deal with a variety of different lane matchups...The actual gameplay may feel somewhat binary (that I don't disagree with) but the metagame around playing as and against Pantheon is extremely engaging in my opinion.

Knowing if/when to trade, how to respond, how to play against a semi-global pressure...

I think Pantheon is non-binary, and very healthy for the 5 v 5 strategic game. He may have problems with feel in the tactical game though.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbalz View Post
I like this, kind of like Lucian's Ultimate. I can't tell you how many times that I've had to cancel my HSS (E) before all three pulses are complete because my target it out of range and getting away. Allow Pantheon movement, or perhaps apply a slow to the all affected would help stick better.
That's exactly my point


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Cpt Shaq Sparrow

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

I rarely play Pantheon anymore, mostly because I find it incredibly challenging to carry games with him. He can win lane phase and come out 4/1/1 with his turret down and help his team secure a dragon, but then when teamfighting rolls around he because incredibly weak.

I love everything that you just mentioned about him - proper usage of the passive, modifying your build to fit different matchups, etc. but once laning phase ends all of that becomes much less important and he becomes so much weaker.

Even though his ultimate is huge AoE damage, it doesn't feel like a teamfighting ultimate - it takes 3.5(?) seconds to arrive, so you have to take a massive guess to even get a good amount of damage off with it, and then you need to dive in on someone and use your two AD-scaling skills and autoattacks to try and secure a kill. Not to mention how tough it is for allies to play around it; it might be because of how little Pantheon is played, but people don't seem to be able to keep enemies in range (or if you misfire, get enemies into range). I end up using it as a backdoor/splitpushing tool much of the time. You NEED to build armor pen and AD to remain relevant damage-wise, and so I can't even find the space for a Bilgewater Cutlass in my build, since I'm not even guaranteed to be able to get in anyway. Not to mention that his E is channeled and interruptible, mitigating tons of his burst. Pantheon is TONS of risk with not enough reward.

I'm not particularly attached to his ultimate being 5500 range like it is now - I think a cool idea would be to reduce its range to maybe ~2000 but allow for a much quicker channel and less damage. This would make his roam much scarier because he can more quickly act upon a good gank opportunity and makes him more consistent in landing his W on enemies. This also lets you more consistently assassinate someone in lane, since when you leave lane you could be waiting to jump onto midlane instead, so midlane would need to always be wary of that. The counterplay to this would well-placed wards so that you could spot Pantheon attempting a roam.


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Erronius

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Here's where I'll probably take some flack...

I think the differentiation between good Pantheons and average Pantheons is massive. Proper usage of his passive, knowing the exact damage quantities at which an all-in is an option, modifying your build to deal with a variety of different lane matchups...The actual gameplay may feel somewhat binary (that I don't disagree with) but the metagame around playing as and against Pantheon is extremely engaging in my opinion.

Knowing if/when to trade, how to respond, how to play against a semi-global pressure...

I think Pantheon is non-binary, and very healthy for the 5 v 5 strategic game. He may have problems with feel in the tactical game though.
All i can say is that i seriously hope your dont get a hand in balancing or reworking him, youre clearly too biased to see the big picture.

Also. A tactical game and a strategic game is the exact aame thing lol, literally identical meanings.


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Here's where I'll probably take some flack...

I think the differentiation between good Pantheons and average Pantheons is massive. Proper usage of his passive, knowing the exact damage quantities at which an all-in is an option, modifying your build to deal with a variety of different lane matchups...The actual gameplay may feel somewhat binary (that I don't disagree with) but the metagame around playing as and against Pantheon is extremely engaging in my opinion.

Knowing if/when to trade, how to respond, how to play against a semi-global pressure...

I think Pantheon is non-binary, and very healthy for the 5 v 5 strategic game. He may have problems with feel in the tactical game though.
I agree 100% with this. Pantheon is a Champion with very simple mechanics, but that doesn't mean there is no complexity to mastering him. He's a Champion that demands constant decision making with few possibilities of backing off if you make the wrong choice.

However, I do feel that his itemization is only variable early game. As the game progresses, buying almost all AD is necessary to remaining relevant. This happens because of his poor scaling as the game progresses. In my opinion, switching some of his power from early to late game, would open different build paths, since now you wouldn't be forced to buy mostly AD.