Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Hazanshu

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after using his jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
For the Aegis, I feel that maybe he can get charges when people autoattack him but requires more charges to build up. Or something along those lines.


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Majin Bl3u

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?
ABSOLUTELY not. You need to make it less punishing for people who he lands on so that you can make it way easier to land (cast time/radius tweeks). His ult just doesn't seem useful if merely used to "jump", because thats a pretty long cooldown and for it to not really add anything reliable to a fight, just running pretty much any other top lane with teleport would be more useful.


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GanjaInMeBrain

Senior Member

10-21-2013

ok I haven't read this thread its very long, so if I a repeat anything that's been said my apologizes. This is gonna be long because I want to introduce you properly to my best friend, mantheon, I have huge passion for the spartan of death.

He is perfectly fine as he is. I got from bronze 2 to gold 5 thanks to this champ. ATM this account is banned for afk (my fault, kept playing games even when my computer kept overheating and shutting down). A few days ago my friend gave me one of his smurfs, a gold 5 account. That account had gold 1 mmr, I was being matched with high gold, low plat, and even some low diamond/high plat occasionaly. My LoL experience has been mostly silver and a few moments of low gold. Yet, I was able to compete with these high elo guys, and I carried some games (if you think mantheon can't carry, you haven't seen a real one). ATM im gold 1 in that account, playing panth and only panth. And to be perfectly honest, I knew i could hold my own because I have mastered panth, and he is a godly champion. I won't reveal the username as I know riot doesn't allow people to use friend's accounts, but ignore this and focus on what I have to tell you, rest assured I did not screw up those high elo games, I won more than I lost.

Enough about me, lets talk pantheon. He is underplayed, and people think he is useless. But it's because people don't know how to utilize his strengths, it's sort of bizzare because he is been around so long..

Im just tell you exactly what to do with panth:

Runes: These are for early game, so use them to help his early game problems, which is really just mana. use mana regen glyphs , ad quints, armor pen (always), and armor or mr depending where ur going. This is a standard rune page, what im really trying to tell u is get some mana.

During game:

Items: Mostly I've done longsword, 1 mana pot, 1 health pot. But recently I've started to use crystaline flank, a a ward, and potions (1 mana). Both can work for sure, but I would use the second build. Don't worry about not having a damage item early, you're base damage on the q will do the job, it's more important to always have mana.

If you're top: Be uber aggressive right from the get go. Right when your opponent comes in lane, you hurl spears at him all day. Most champs won't be able to trade with you early. Force a level 1 fight, your passive will be huge. Your low cd spear will be huge. Nobody can touch you level 1 because aa matter at that point, and you will block 1 or 2.

If they are smart enough to avoid a level 1 all in, you have infinite mana, so just keep abusing them every time they try to cs. They will either be low or zoned out. You will end up level 1 before them a lot of the time, so just jump in and all in them. Even if they are 2, you win trades early on against almost anybody. Either zone him out, or kill him. Just always know you have an advantage because pantheon is filthy early when he has so much mana regen. Renekton atm is very strong, he is picked a lot. Send a panth against him and you will laugh. If you're against a kennen, I can't help you out, I haven't figured that one out (yet). Cho is a counter, but you can beat him, you MUST be full on aggressive early, don't let him cs cause he will likely start cloth 5 and if he can get his passive regen you won't be having a fun time. Try to kill him ASAP. If he gets to 6, he will beat you 1v1. So try to shove then ult gank mid or even bot if you can get the jungle to cover ur lane. These are the only 2 champions I have a problem against, really. Also, always ban shen or ask the captain to. You can beat a shen in lane quite easily but if you leave ur lane to gank, he will just stay there and shove your lane then join your gank so he can really ruin ur day.

Although panth dominates most top, mid is by far, his best lane. Why? Because mids are usually squishy. If they want to stack armor, they will do less damage mid game so it's a win for ur team. Plus with a brutalizer u will still be able to kill them. People love to send ad assasins mid these days, mostly zed. Trust me, panth shi.ts on any ad assasin early game. Zed, kha, talon, aatrox, manth eats these guys for breakfast. It's easy, same as top, you just go full aggro early. A few days ago I played 3 zeds in a row, and I got fb level 1 everytime, no joke. Again, your passive and low cd spear is insane. Fizz is super popular after the worlds. Guess who rapes him doggy style? I feel sorry for every fizz I face, because he has 0 counter play to panth. He has to get close to cs, and there is nothing that he can do. You just spear everytime. He decides to fight you, you report him for feeding. What is he doing jumping on a panth when his q will be blocked? What is he gonna do after when u stun him and ur passive is up again*? He is completely aa dependent, this is such a one sided lane it's amusing.

Now here is where pantheon's edge is. If you dominate mid, you just ult bot and dunk them every time its up. Every time. Snowball bot. This is the only reason a fresh out of silver player like me is able to compete in high gold/low plat. After 6 make it your top priority. I can not believe his ult used to be global, that's ridiculous. I have no idea why people think his ult is useless.

If you have a support who can stun, you tell him to stun when he sees the circle and then the adc eats full ult damage, another stun, spear, dead, just dead, no hope. If you don't have a support with cc, no prob. You shouldn't be using your ult for damage, it's for positioning. You can sandwich the bot lane so easily. Tell your bot lane to start a fight as u ult in behind the enemy bot, you throw a spear and stun after they use a gapcloser. Should be at least 1 kill, most of the time two. When your jungler dives in too, it's easy 2 kills a tower and dragon.

If the enemy bot is at their turret with a decent minion wave, it's happy hour. You dive in with 0 hesitation because they cant run anywhere, they are forced to eat the ult damage. Your passive will block a turret hit, so panth is a good diver.

This is why I prefer panth mid then top, it's just too easy to gank bot. I'm gonna ask you a question, is there anybody in the game who has such strong early lane dominance and excellent roam potential? You tell me if you can think of someone. Twisted fate can gank bot the same way, except he cant dive cause he is more squishy and his ult does no damage and he cant block a turret hit. He also does not have strong early lane dominance like panth.

Once you master manth you will be winning mid and bot by yourself, and I promise you, this works even better in high elo, as when you give high elo players ganks they will, most of the time, actually do their job and snowball. And guess what? Manth is super easy to use, no skill shots or anything, u just need to use ur ult wisely.

Jungle: Tricky, but can be pulled off if you pick up an early kill. But it's high risk high reward. Generally, probably a bad idea.

{Support}: Works, its great. U start 4 wards 5 health pots and 2 mana pots, and u harass the **** out of their adc and all in level 2. You can also dive at 6 if they are decently low and even some mid ganks. Bad against caitlyn, ezreal. AMAZING against draven, vayne. I sometimes ask to change my role to support when i see a draven or vayne, cause they have short range, are aa dependent (ur passive)

Mid game: You are only useful if you are fed at this point, follow what I said and get fed. Rush a blackcleaver always. After, you can go for lw but I prefer straight ga. Ga panth is so manly, just ults in, locks up a high priority target, forces the focus on himself and revives. But only do that if your team doesn't have a strong initiate. How is a long distance jump that does pretty good base damage useless? You ult into the backline after the team fight starts, and just force their team to focus you. You will die a lot, but your team will win the fights cause you will disrupt the enemy team's flow since you can be on top of their squishiest. This works much better with ga up. He is not useless at any point of the game.

Please Morello, don't do anything to this champ. He is just fine. If people just learn how to use him..

*People, please. Pantheon's passive is supposed to be used twice. After you block, u use ur stun and its up again. That's two aa you should be blocking. Stop jumping in first.


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VelNyeScienceEye

Senior Member

10-21-2013

He's good early game, it's just that some of the late game champs aren't really too far behind him at top. Unless you go all in constantly to harass them out of lane, you can't really get too far ahead. He's an early game champ, he needs to face roll late game champs early.


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IS1c0576ec0ecef2

Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
From what I said in my post above, I feel that a good change for his passive would be to make the health % increase as you level it

Level 1 would be 15%
Level 2 would be 17.5%
Level 3 would be 20%
Level 4 would be 22.5%
Level 5 would be 25%

Would work best imo, since as you level it, it becomes a stronger passive. Meaning when he hits late-game, his passive still is meaningful, but it keeps in in check in-lane so he doesn't start snowballing.

His ultimate, if anything needs to be changed with it, is after he jumps it needs maybe a 0.5s or 0.25s reduction in the time it takes for you to land, People currently have too much time to go from the middle, or close to the middle of it, to the outer edges, and out of range of your stun before you land.

I play Pantheon a lot, and totally love him. These are issues that I constantly see with him, while playing him though. Things that irk me about him. For instance, Yes a good Panth ult can change a teamfight, but more often than not, you rarely do any damage with it, and if you do, it's outer-edge damage, it's simply used as a gapcloser/semi-initiation half the time, which then begs the question.. why does it do damage if you rarely hit with it?

Last but not least, yes I honestly believe that if you want to go AD caster on Pantheon, he is way too squishy, he does huge damage, but any coordinated team can hop on him and kill him before he does anything. No escapes, 2 scaling AD spells. While someone like Zed or Kha'zix, or even Rengar, can do comparable damage to a target, but all have 'some' sort of escape. I don't know what can be done to change this, because honestly his damage is in a good spot right now, just not his survivability. Building Survivability only hurts him that much more(because you know, 2 AD ratios)


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Ghaceruk

Senior Member

10-21-2013

I think he is in a somewhat fine condition right now. His poke is pretty good (tho quite mana hungry if you spam too much, but manageable) and if you build smart he can still deal ok damage whitout going full glass cannon. A build with some tankyness and a good bit of damage and armorpen should be enough for him to survive and deal damage in teamfights. Going full squishy on a melee fighter is stupid anyway and not fun to fight against if they manage to survive and deal crazy damage.

It's a bit problematic tho that his only "escape" is his high base movespeed. You can try to stun someone and run off, or try to ult your way out, but those are some really risky things to do.
His stun range is pitiful considering it deals almost no damage, lasts only 1sec and can only be targeted against enemy champions. If something were to change I hope they'd be QoL changes/minor buffs to W.

Some small passive stat buffs to R might be nice, but I think its fine otherwise. Like TF ult it's mainly a roaming/positioning tool and adding too much power to it would make Pantheon a nightmare to all enemy lanes. Maybe faster preparation/cast time on high levels so it would be more satisfying to use in the middle of a teamfight, so it doesn't go unused if you didn't use it to enter the fight.

PS. Don't buff him too much! Only minor tweaks! I don't want to see him banned in fear of instapenta hss again.


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VelNyeScienceEye

Senior Member

10-21-2013

What if he was ranged and his Q was a melee spear stab? Yes, I know I don't have great ideas.


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exec3

Senior Member

10-21-2013

I don't play Panth but when I have tried him the ultimate is definitely the big pain point, it just takes too long to execute making it useless as an offensive tool.

It's strange people find his passive unsatisfying. When I verse Panth his passive is one of my most hated things in the game, it just seems to always be up which prevents AA harass because if you want to harass you have to commit to multiple strikes which in turn lets him counter harass you with his superior damage. It is a very very frustrating passive to fight against imo, at least in lane.


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DirtyNate

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

I pretty much feel if a champ isn't ever used in Worlds or LCS there is probably a problem.

I feel like his biggest problem is he's an assassin without an escape. Why play panth when you can play zed or ahri? Perhaps the across the board assassin nerfs will help.


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Faptain Teemo

Member

10-21-2013

Q and E are fine for the most part. Due to them being spammable/low CD, Panth does tend to go dry on mana early, and sometimes late - You can only harass enemies under tower for so long before it's time to back for more mana.

The idea for an armor ratio (why not MR too?) is creative. I think his ult should be reworked to where you first cast R to choose a wide zone to launch towards, then you can recast R to choose the exact landing spot - Offset cast time to give enemies time to react.