Introducing Team Builder

First Riot Post
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Katsuo Nuruodo

Junior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
In the playerbase, there's a large % of players who are willing and happy to select their Champion first before seeing the rest of the team composition. However, we also know there's a % of players who want to see the team first, discuss strategy, then choose a complementary champion--this is especially true for Marksman or Support players.

However, when designing Team Builder we had to balance the flexibility we were offering players with the time it's going to take to build a team and get into a match. In an ideal world where decisions are all made at lightspeed, we could offer players every single decision point we could think of; however, we start approaching scary long times just to build a team together because you're thinking about 100 decisions every single lobby. Not only do more decisions lead to longer team building times, we also begin to deal with the psychological effect of too many choices possibly overwhelming players who just want some flexibility but ultimately just want to have fun.

We're still trying to find the right balance of flexibility and cost of time, which is why we've decided to initially offer features like allowing team leaders to select "Any Role" as a role option. We'll collect data and see how the flow of the experience is and decide if we need to add more flexibility features as we test on PBE.
I have read every red post in this thread(93, at this point). First off, this is a really great feature. I can't wait to start using it. Good work.

Secondly, I've noticed that one of the largest features requested is the ability to change your champ. People talk about allowing leaders to approve champ swap requests, or people presenting alternative choices the leader can select from(or the team can vote on. To which the response has been that it will take more time, add complexity, etc...

I think that the root of this issue is not necessarily that people want to be able to swap champs, it's that they want to have one of their best champs for the team comp that they join. For example, if I queue up with Jax as a top fighter, and I get accepted by a team leader, and see nidalee mid, ezreal bot, mundo jungle, sona support; well, it's a poke comp. Jax is not a poke champ. Seeing this, I'd now much rather play, say, Jayce. Both Jayce and Jax have the same "fighter" role, yet do not work in the same teamcomps. If I stick with this team, I'm probably going to have a bad game. When we get out of laning phase, either I stand around doing nothing while my team pokes, or I jump in and die. Now, my immediate reaction may be "I'm good with Jayce, I've wanted to play with a teamcomp like this for a while and practice poke comp", but of course, I can't switch, and as you said, adding an option to would add complexity and slow down team select.

In fact, maybe just before this I tried queuing up as Jayce, got accepted into 5 teams, but none of them were poke comps(which, in this hypothetical situation, I was interested in practicing), so I backed out of those. So, after that, I gave up, and figured I'd go for Jax instead, and settle for an all-in comp. How frustrating would it be for me to finally get a perfect poke comp team, and be locked out of picking the poke champ that I'd been hoping to play all along?

But, if you take a step back from this, there's another way to accomplish the same goal, without making team select take longer or more complex. In fact, it would likely speed it up. That is: a team browser

This was suggested back on page 32 of this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serrot Ynot View Post
I know your not tying to enforce the meta with this system but essentially you are asking people to commit to longer queue times if they oppose the current meta. the more away from the meta your strategy is the longer you have to wait.

As I understand it now if my strategy is not the same as another I will not be matched with him. So if we both don't conform to the same strategy we will not be matched to each other. Then expanding to the global field, way out there strategies will never be matched to simply because no one is thinking of it.

I think if you want to allow crazy meta breaking teams a browse option needs to be available. This will players to see what crazy stuff is out there and choose to join it. Maybe in queue a 5 ADC mid lain team will never happen but on a list 4 random people browsing that list might think that would be fun game even if they never thought of it.
So, to make this work, team leaders would type out their overall team comp(like "dive comp" or "aoe" or "all mid tower push" or "poke" or "early game power" or "stall to late game then crush" or "all teleport split-push") as part of the team setup as you've already laid out for team builder. Then, when a player wants to play a game, they can browse team comps. Your software will look for teams that are appropriate skill level for the player, and present those as choices. The player can filter teams by what roles are available(say, have check boxes for each lane/role), so I could say I'm interested in seeing teams with a spot open for a top or jungle with roles of fighter or mage. They can filter as much or as little as they'd like(so, if they try "marksman top" and don't see anything, they know that there aren't any appropriate games available at the moment, and either wait longer, select more roles or lanes, or pull out and make their own team).

A player may see something that sounds like fun, pick a good champ for the team comp, then apply to join the team. Then, this proceeds as you already planned. The leader can accept the player, or not. Of course, as the player knew the leader's team comp goal before they picked a champ, there's a much higher chance that the leader will accept their pick, speeding up teambuilding. And, the player will have a champ that's appropriate for the teamcomp, so they likely won't be frustrated that they're locked in to that champ.

If the player is not accepted(which probably won't happen very often with this method), they are put back into the browser, where they can look for another teamcomp they're interested in, pick a champ, and apply to join.

You could also add in an "ignore" or "hide" button for teamcomps listed in the browser, so the player could clear teams away that they're not interested in.

As Serrot suggested, this has other benefits, in that it's much easier to get a team together of people who want to try something non-meta. I mean, if you wanted to try a teamcomp of all global/long-range ults, that would be extremely difficult to set up in your proposed teambuilder. You'd reject most of the player applications you got(as most applications would be non-long-range ult champs), then the team builder system would slow down sending you players(your abuse prevention).

There may be hundreds of players out there, queuing at the right time, at the right skill level, who would love to try this teamcomp, but have no idea that someone's running it, and therefore probably haven't selected an appropriate champion for it. (Because really, if you chose ashe and rejected games until you hit a long-range ult team, well, you probably wouldn't be playing a game that day, or that week. In fact, abuse prevention would probably kick in and make it even harder to look for that elusive teamcomp.) This could be a great strategy that works well, but your system doesn't allow people to try for it.

For that matter, let's say in celebration of the harrowing, I could say my teamcomp is "undead/zombie/creepy skins/characters". Or go for an all yordle team. Or an all Demacia team. Go for a team of evil characters, or a team of Defenders of Justice. Maybe the team leader decides to play Draven, and decrees that all champs on his team must have a mustache. Maybe the team leader goes for Dunkmaster Darius, and assembles a team of champs who can dunk. Maybe the team leader is hungry, and wants a team of champs/skins involving food or beverages.

So, whether I have some genius non-meta team comp idea I want to try out(and there are players looking for a team who think this sounds like a lot of fun to try), or if I want to do a themed teamcomp, I could set it up, and players who would like to play that have the chance to.

Naturally, if people aren't interested in the leader's possibly crazy idea, then they won't get enough people for it, and they'll have to give it up. But, at least people will have a chance to see it, and choose whether they'd like to try it or not. With the TeamBuilder in the state that you currently describe it, there's very little chance of players hitting a non-meta teamcomp with a champ that they'd actually want to play in it(as described in the long-range ults team example above), and similarly a small chance that team leader will be able to find interested players with appropriate champs for a non-meta comp.

So, with this system, whether people are assembling meta or non-meta teamcomps, people will be able to find a comp they're interested in, and have a champ that they want to play with that comp. This allows for better team coherence with meta comps, and makes unconventional or themed comps possible.

Additionally, this team browser would actually shorten time to get into a game, without making the team's lobby any more complicated, and players the team leader is asked to accept or reject are likely much more appropriate for what they have in mind(so, fewer clicks).

Some notes:

The only information players would be able to see about a team in the browser would be: stated teamcomp and what lanes/roles are available. An added benefit of this is that it would allow players to fill the last spot available in a team to get into a game quickly. Some players(at least 34%, according to your statistics. That's 15% support players, 14% jungle, and 5% who will fill. I say at least because in this case picking the last spot also gets you into game faster, an incentive that isn't yet available to players) would be happy to play support or jungle, especially since it gets them into the actual game faster. The current TeamBuilder as described doesn't allow this.

This browse mode could be optional. There's no reason you couldn't let players choose to browse, or just let the system try to match them up as you've already described.

Along with filters for teams with certain slots open, you could also set up filters for common teamcomps. In order to implement this, the team leader would be given a drop down with a list of teamcomps. One choice would be "other", which would let them just type one in. So, if too many games are being displayed in the browser, and you know what teamcomps you're interested in(or not interested in), you could filter it further that way. If you want something different, you could filter it to show only "other" teamcomps, or if you want something standard, you could filter those out.


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ltachi

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Plainview View Post
Jungle Eve is not a great example, as she is very good just maligned by the idiots on GD...
I wouldn't use the words "very good." If the team only gives her assists instead of kills she can't exert enough global pressure with her passive and easily falls behind.


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Duranthor

Junior Member

10-17-2013

Hi,

The single reason I stopped playing solo que ranked was because of the drama in champion select. It was right at the heat of the debate between call and position debate and it was really stupid.

There is such a disadvantage trying to get a team strat and get champions selected and banned in 60 seconds for someone in solo que that even if you play 9 games and it goes well, that 10th game going terrible just ruins the experience.

This seems to be the perfect solution for this issue so I do not understand why you are waiting to roll it out for solo que ranked. I was excited to see this was comming and it made me want to play ranked again, but now I am sad because it doesn't seem like it's going to be used there, it's just another game play mode.


Thank you,

Paul


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anamie

Junior Member

10-17-2013

When this will be ready??


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ChalIenger

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gløry View Post
*queues up as Nautilus Support--Top Lane*

Estimated wait time: 4 billion years

Basically there's no way of knowing whether your Class + position combination is desired out there without a lobby. This effectively makes it extremely hard to find a spot on a team looking for anything but the standard. Thereby (indirectly) enforcing the meta?
Amazing how every post you make is very annoying, Please stop posting foolishness. This system is fantastic, I've gotten tired of people instant locking, trolling in game room and acting dumb. Now
Ohh Boy now. It's amazing we can choose what lane that we want and get it. I don't care about the queue times. Just don't pick a champ for a stupid role . If people don't like Nautilus support, it says something ? doesn't it? It means choose a real support and youll get queues much eaiser.

The meta is a wonderful thing and it should and always be enforced as it'll make 90% of games more easy to get along with.

I hate when ppl troll and go mid zilean , bot naut , jungle taco and all that garbage.

LOVE YOU RIOT FOREVER <333333333333333333333 Please continue taking my money for your awesome skins and champions.


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bryjow123

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gløry View Post
*queues up as Nautilus Support--Top Lane*

Estimated wait time: 4 billion years

Basically there's no way of knowing whether your Class + position combination is desired out there without a lobby. This effectively makes it extremely hard to find a spot on a team looking for anything but the standard. Thereby (indirectly) enforcing the meta?
Try running that with strangers in a normal blind pick and see how long it takes you to get a game where people don't call you a troll for trying that.

Probably the same as your "estimated queue time". No difference between this and that :P

It's already extremely hard to find a team of randoms who are interested in anything but the meta.


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Photolith

Junior Member

10-17-2013

This looks fantastic! Can't wait for it to be implemented.


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FixEUplssss

Junior Member

10-17-2013

At first i got superhyped for this game-mode to come. And even with some criticism following, i want to let you guys from Riot know that i really really like the way you re going for - in general

But after some reading in this thread i had to find this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Nope, much more streamlined than that. Since it is its own queue, there's no bans or anything like that. Once everyone is 'ready' and the leader launches the game, you just end up in queue and then on a loading screen.
This pretty much destroyed it for me as a "serious" way to queue. In my opinion this little fact alone pushes your idea more into a "lets test things out and / or have some funny and peaceful games"-mode (which i, casually, also like at some times) rather than a real "I want to compete with others to get better myself", as you will have to play A) vs all the recently revealed/buffed, so called OP-champs and B) you will have no chance to ban out certain counters to certain strategies.

Of course you could argue here that the enemys cannot counter you on purpose since they wont know what u pick either, but still, you just could get bad luck ,- wanna play all-stealth comp pressuring early game like there is no tomorrow? GG, they got Lee Sin, Corki and Lulu - autoLose, bye.

Im sure that you already took it into consideration, but please think about just combining the best out of Draft Mode/TeamBuilder.

Kind Regards


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Katsuo Nuruodo

Junior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryjow123 View Post
Try running that with strangers in a normal blind pick and see how long it takes you to get a game where people don't call you a troll for trying that.

Probably the same as your "estimated queue time". No difference between this and that :P

It's already extremely hard to find a team of randoms who are interested in anything but the meta.
This could be improved if players had the option to browse available teams, as I detailed here: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...6#post42295736


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eabe

Senior Member

10-17-2013

I have posted on here many times for an option for role selection before the game starts. Every time I did i got an overwhelming replay of negativity. Riot post that they are doing it and every one loves them for it.

Anyways a few points I would like to make about this system are:

  1. Most people who play solo rank queue wont find this all that helpful.
    • Most people want to play a role not a specific champion. I mean who really wants to play against there hard counter when they can avoid it?
    • This is a modified Blind pick and I would treat as such.
  2. What will be the point of having lots of rune pages if you know what Champ you're going to play before you play? It kind of feels like your punishing people who have lots of rune pages.
  3. What will be the rank/draft implantation of it?
    • People who were asking for this that I saw were manly vet players tired of feeling in the holes for those who couldn't play more then one role.
    • I really hope that the draft mode just does away with the pre-selection of champions and instead just shows the role they selected in champion select making banning and champion select smooth and intuitive.

Well i wanted to say more but I am running out of time maybe later. Anyways a great start for replacing blind pick if ask me.