Does anyone else think it's kind of a bummer that both of Zyra's skins are 1350 rp?

First Riot Post
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Calderweiss

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Ironstylus, just let the pricing guys talk about this. I really don't want you to get flamed for something you aren't responsible for.


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exec3

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Very much not up to par. It was my work and I totally admit it.
I think it's the line itself that's the problem. Crimson Elite skins are terrible. :S


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

10-16-2013
16 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsonkittens View Post
Hey ironstylus, not sure how you will feel about this question, but here we go.

Is there something about the game itself that makes it really hard to design content for it? I really feel like that seems to be the case. It seems like a painstaking process to make even one champion.

What are the other companies doing that make producing content such a breeze? I'll be honest, I'm an airhead on this topic. I'm just curious what the real differences are between this game and say, Skyrim when it comes to making models.
Design? No. Produce? Depends. It's a lot of steps.

Champion creation:

Ideation

- Concept (Art, Creative & Design iterate on the idea of the champion)
- (potential prototyping)
- Approval
- Exploration (mechanics, tech requirements, production side of prototyping)

Production - Art

- Proxy modelling (enables exploration)
- High-rez modelling
- Retopo/AO/Texturing (lots of adjustments happen here)
- Rigging (done using the proxy)
- Animation
- VFX
- Sound
- Splash
- Motion graphics

Production - Design

- Mechanics exploration
- Mechanics solidifying
- Tuning
- Balance
- QA

Production - Design

- Personality/Character fleshing
- Bio writing
- VO scriptwriting
- VO recording
- Promotional exploration

Other

- QA
- Promotion
- eCommerce
- Community
- Tons of technical team stuff that I have no idea on how it functions.
- Release/deploy

That's off the top of my head for champions alone. Each team has a similar process from Skins to Relaunch. It's truncated in certain areas, as in skin concepting phase is much shorter than Champion or Relaunch. Skin production can be on a tighter timeline as well. Relaunch has a general timeline, but we operate our concepting differently and we have a much smaller team.

Challenges in the general sense are technical limitations of the engine, tech that might have to be created for a champion/skin/relaunch, IP considerations and a lot of crafting around making robust characters. Teams are also not huge, by design. We're sort of like strike teams, lots of stuff operating at one time, cranking on different stuff. Not everyone is interchangeable. Someone making assets for a CG trailer isn't necessarily appropriate for in-game asset creation, that's a specialty thing.

We're a big game, with a lot of moving parts, which are all moving at different speeds sometimes. We're also a growing company, looking to streamline processes and iterate. These challenges are not unique. We're also not a boxed title, the game is always evolving. We essentially ship a new game with each patch in some sense depending on content and balance.

Anyway, that's a very general laundry list. Boils down to there just a lot to be done, with a lot of steps.


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Emperrier

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Why does every skin need to be up to the 975 RP standards if it's going to see release? Would it really have been so much work to just put some champ with no skins other than their release ones in a Halloween costume, without any frills?

On an unrelated note, why was Lolipoppy's splash ruined?


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

10-16-2013

How does a Rioter even come onto these forums without fearing for their mental health? GD can be so stubborn some (okay..most) days it astounds me. If I were a Rioter I would have stopped visiting GD forever ago.

Keep on keeping on, IronStylus.


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Nid is Cancer

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Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Design? No. Produce? Depends. It's a lot of steps.

Champion creation:

Ideation

- Concept (Art, Creative & Design iterate on the idea of the champion)
- (potential prototyping)
- Approval
- Exploration (mechanics, tech requirements, production side of prototyping)

Production - Art

- Proxy modelling (enables exploration)
- High-rez modelling
- Retopo/AO/Texturing (lots of adjustments happen here)
- Rigging (done using the proxy)
- Animation
- VFX
- Sound
- Splash
- Motion graphics

Production - Design

- Mechanics exploration
- Mechanics solidifying
- Tuning
- Balance
- QA

Production - Design

- Personality/Character fleshing
- Bio writing
- VO scriptwriting
- VO recording
- Promotional exploration

Other

- QA
- Promotion
- eCommerce
- Community
- Tons of technical team stuff that I have no idea on how it functions.
- Release/deploy

That's off the top of my head for champions alone. Each team has a similar process from Skins to Relaunch. It's truncated in certain areas, as in skin concepting phase is much shorter than Champion or Relaunch. Skin production can be on a tighter timeline as well. Relaunch has a general timeline, but we operate our concepting differently and we have a much smaller team.

Challenges in the general sense are technical limitations of the engine, tech that might have to be created for a champion/skin/relaunch, IP considerations and a lot of crafting around making robust characters. Teams are also not huge, by design. We're sort of like strike teams, lots of stuff operating at one time, cranking on different stuff. Not everyone is interchangeable. Someone making assets for a CG trailer isn't necessarily appropriate for in-game asset creation, that's a specialty thing.

We're a big game, with a lot of moving parts, which are all moving at different speeds sometimes. We're also a growing company, looking to streamline processes and iterate. These challenges are not unique. We're also not a boxed title, the game is always evolving. We essentially ship a new game with each patch in some sense depending on content and balance.

Anyway, that's a very general laundry list. Boils down to there just a lot to be done, with a lot of steps.

How about you guys actually think about what you will do and brainstorm more since the general vibe i get from most of your posts are, "We scrapped this skin idea" (which has been used probably more than 20 times). And anyways, if you split up the work into teams as you have, each team does not have an overbearing amount of work. The amount of money you get from sales is insane, its why you are so popular.

Oh, don't try to bring any champion discussion into this. You guys produced more skins when you made champions every 2 weeks, and now we have a champ every 4-5 weeks.

One last note, what do you mean, "IP considerations"? Its, "ur gonna be overpriced for a week, then overpriced for the rest of time! yay!"


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GLaD0S

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Very much not up to par. It was my work and I totally admit it.
Is leblanc getting a new skin (Soon™) or is she a champion schedualed for a VU?


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

10-16-2013

I understand that this is not your domain anymore and that we're shooting sideways.

But I would recommend bringing Hippalus, Phreak, and Morello directly, if you feel that to be a good idea. While I disagree on some of the feedback being given, I do think that some of that feedback has valid components that deserve responding to--and they're the ones that this is most directed at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Oh absolutely. They're not hard to deal with when someone from the dev side comes along with info that can help answer questions or clarify. Those questions should be asked, and answered, if there's someone who can actually do that on the Riot side. Though, not every question has an expert who's available to come answer it.

I think the big issue is that when things get into mud-slinging, insults, or other negative comments, it just dissuades developers from even trying their hand at the difficult questions, even if they have the expertise, for fear of getting pitch-forked.
This is more a summary of opinion than my own opinion, although I have some sympathies in places.

Devs: GD reaches a berserk state and will accept nothing besides their own opinions--no matter what reasons are posted in response.

GD (detoxified and collectivized filter): Devs might benefit from accepting our advice, no matter how crudely it is worded, especially when failure to listen to us (the kits posted at the end of the first thread hinted at an "anything but that" attitude towards the Olaf rework) seemed to result in exactly what Olaf mains on GD feared would happen if the rework went past PBE.

We have engaged in mudslinging because we see no evidence you can hear us and truly want to listen to us even if we're positive or at least constructive, so we try to claim a shallow emotional reward through sarcasm and cynicism to justify our giving of feedback.

We also mudsling in part because Morello, in our eyes and collective cognitive biases, seems to only seek out easy-to-debunk threads/responses and fails to leave harder questions alive, all while maintaining a cocky "smarter-than-thou" attitude about the remainder. Ditto Phreak. When either of them listen, they have a chance to implement solutions that seem explicitly like we wished on a monkey's paw (what Morello's responses to the "Sivir rework UP" thread appeared to look like). Yes, Morello seems to be capable of apologizing and taking feedback, but it's either for things that can't be changed (Elise being a poor kit design in terms of game health), or for things that we can't ever see happen even if they're good ideas (525 range Vayne wherE?).

We also think that some prominent Rioters' responses to various complaints are highly inadequate--and worse, the Rioters doing this making seem to be valuing our opinions less and less and less, and abandoning ship if we point out flaws in their thinking for a certain length of time.

[Tort's note: I'm leaving SmashGizmo out of this. If the guy bit off more than he could chew with the Olaf rework thread and again with the followup, I see no reason to include him in this.]

Some Rioters seem to pay attention to us or naturally utilize our thoughts on design, and get little-to-no flak as a result. Meddler, Xelnath, 20thCenturyFaux [Tort's note: and ManWolfAxeBoss on the Dominion forum], and to a much lesser extent Scarizard seem to be good at doing this. Others (kitae, Phreak, Morello, Hippalus) do not, either encouraging the "play rough and fight dirty" posting mentality through their own posts [Morello, Phreak] or making vague references to hidden, intangible information we can't really evaluate [Phreak, kitae, Hippalus] and arguments that we either find difficult to take seriously [Phreak, kitae], fail to hold up according to our visible evidence [Phreak, kitae] (Jinx video is great, but the champion release lore is still too ambiguous and "locked in time" [will we EVER see the Freljord war end, or is it basically in a Zilean stasis bubble?] to be adequate in the eyes of fans who could digest the JoJ), or need additional clarification to make valid [the pricing debacle could have been solved a lot earlier simply by demonstrating the sales of the currently 520/750 RP dropped-price skins and showing that they are more popular in total than all the skins boosted to 1350 RP].

Lyte escapes the list because his projects always seem to have a positive net impact on us--and because he does not appear to break his promises (and he/his team give enough reasoning to justify the measures taken when something happens that sounds a lot like a promise-breaker ("we aren't enforcing the meta") but actually was specifically built to avoid breaking that promise).

This is another issue--we have seen many promises that were quite probably broken (or worse, twisted with legalese) in some way, shape, or form, and we have trouble not treating Riot as a whole with contempt when promises made in the past are broken in the present, or design patterns that were (to the best of our understanding) deemed game-unhealthy in Season 2 were suddenly appearing on the new FotM's of Season 3--and less fun than ever to fight. Essentially, drying the tinder for conspiratorial accusations of greed over Season 3, however inaccurate they might be.

FeStylus, you're generally great at finding positive material to post in and let flourish, and you're also good at admitting mistakes. We simply want certain prominent Rioters, oftentimes representing entire departments or prominent community positions, to consistently do so even when the feedback they get is harsh.

Quote:
Everything you've just talked about is great in terms of what it's asking, how it's being asked, and the format. Now, I don't really know how to answer 90% of it because I'm not in sales or on the Skins team. I'm just throwing out what context I have handy.
It may be good to bring the Skins team, and possibly the Balance team, too. It seems like they're the real topics of the side-discussion we've been having and we're mostly shooting sideways at the only Rioter in the thread we can hit.

Quote:
What I think we'd all like is questions like yours, well phrased, polite, succinct, and actually positive in how it's framed, despite you passionately disagreeing with how we're handling something, should rise to the top. It's really hard to find the posts like these in this format. Right now, it's very difficult to sort through this thread and answer questions like these. My hope is that maybe the new format will bring these comments to the top where someone can respond appropriately. That's the perspective from my end at least.

Also, lack of popularity shouldn't be correlated to whether a question is answered or not. I find myself able to find niche questions and provide answers in the other format just by how the thread is being sorted.
Trust me, when the community backs around this concept, it's awesome. When Reddit manages this it validates my somewhat more positive opinions of the site than most of the people posting here.

I think the issue is one of getting there.


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Eyro Elloyn

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Hey parrot, a bit off topic but I have a question about Priority. OK, that's not why I'm asking but it's involved.


Why was Vi's next skin prioritized to be a fun/fanservice one? Her main is her main skin, like normal, and her release was a bit of a fun/colorful one. I would've expected something along the line of Bear Cavalry Sejuani to be the next one (In the way that BCS just looks badass and aggressive), but whoever prioritizes skins decided to go with Officer Vi.

Why? Harrowing? I am asking mainly because I'm extremely disappointed, but I'm also curious about the thought process with this.


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AntiSkillshot

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the yordle View Post
How does a Rioter even come onto these forums without fearing for their mental health? GD can be so stubborn some (okay..most) days it astounds me. If I were a Rioter I would have stopped visiting GD forever ago.

Keep on keeping on, IronStylus.
Sometimes, you have to be stubborn it get your point across. Is it always the best idea? No. But, when you're left with no other option...