Introducing Team Builder

First Riot Post
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KingMalice

Junior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woot Elite View Post
This is absolute garbage. you're basically forcing the game into how you want it played. This is awful because after this comes the tribunal being able to ban people for not playing a specific champion to a role. so if I want to say Gp support for fun I can't anymore because he won't be in the specific role group and therefore grayed out. I hate forcing people to play a certain way I don't care how Toxic you really think people are they generally aren't. They just want to play what they want. This on the other hand is litterally forcing the way you think the game should be played therefore stagmenting the meta. It'll become so stale so boring that no game would be worth watching or playing. Your balance already makes tournaments pretty stale as in less then 15% of the current champion pool is played. I just feel that if you want to be rid of toxicity do this. remove global chat. 2 remove team chat. 3 replace all teamwork needed options with pings. 9 times out 10 toxic players are not that way to start with it's the 1 out of 10 toxic players that give them grief and cause them to act emotionally and take out that in game. Get rid of the toxic speech you should put a lot of the toxic player base down. in short I can't get behind this right now. I'll spend a bit on time on the PBE and see how it all shapes out, but this scares me.
Look. They designed the game to work a certain way and made certain characters to do certain things. I mean the game is designed the way they want it to. So how can we all get pissed because they chose to enforce the game they want it played? I don't care either way, though I am biased because of all the *******s and trolls that this game has. If this is going to enforce better, more cooperative teamplay, then I'm all for it. But we can't get pissed because RIOT wants their game played the way they want it to be played. Not understanding that is just naive.

"But the meta!"

If you like the meta, you're in luck. If you don't like the meta (most of these people end up ****ting all over the games I play and ruining them, so yea, I like to stick to it) then nothing has really changed, from my perspective at least. I mean the meta works if everyone plays it. Maybe it's not the meta that's broken. Maybe you're ruining it. Just a thought.

All I'm saying is, don't criticize Riot because they didn't do what you want with their game. Yea they take feedback, so I'm not telling them not to listen. Hell, maybe the feedback made this "upgrade" possible. So maybe the vocal majority won today. Regardless, if you are *****ing because you didn't get your way on something that has nothing to do with you, grow up.


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GaYsuNN

Senior Member

10-16-2013

If this comes to ranked, i will be so happy.
*remembers last champion select where last pick says he's going to troll if he's support*


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KilljoyX

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Pros:
Less trolling and less QQ.
Get who you want, where you want, with less whining.
Happy team

Cons:
Mid lane 10 minute que time.
Top lane 8 minute que time
ADC 7 minute que time.
Jungle 4 minute que time.
Support que time, time rewinds 4 minutes and puts you on a loading screen.

Seems like WoW dungeon que which is a good way to do it but time consuming and gives a huge amount of power to the support.


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Tigercule

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
In the playerbase, there's a large % of players who are willing and happy to select their Champion first before seeing the rest of the team composition. However, we also know there's a % of players who want to see the team first, discuss strategy, then choose a complementary champion--this is especially true for Marksman or Support players.

However, when designing Team Builder we had to balance the flexibility we were offering players with the time it's going to take to build a team and get into a match. In an ideal world where decisions are all made at lightspeed, we could offer players every single decision point we could think of; however, we start approaching scary long times just to build a team together because you're thinking about 100 decisions every single lobby. Not only do more decisions lead to longer team building times, we also begin to deal with the psychological effect of too many choices possibly overwhelming players who just want some flexibility but ultimately just want to have fun.

We're still trying to find the right balance of flexibility and cost of time, which is why we've decided to initially offer features like allowing team leaders to select "Any Role" as a role option. We'll collect data and see how the flow of the experience is and decide if we need to add more flexibility features as we test on PBE.
Could you maybe allow us two back-up picks? So say we queue up as Marksman Bot and choose Ezreal, we can check a box or a dropdown or something that gives us the option to play, say, Ashe or Vayne. (Using those particular ones for examples of good champs for poke, see-champ-kill-champ-gambit-style, and late game hypercarry team comps respectively.)


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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10-16-2013
81 of 101 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep the Poro View Post
Alright I would just like to start off by saying I have read every red post, and every quote they had inside their post inside this thread and I am a strong supporter of this idea. Love it Riot, great work.

I have one question however, and two suggestions to help this be even better.

I'll start with the question. Do you select your runes and masteries once you're matched with your team, or before? I think it would be MUCH better to select them after you've had the opportunity to speak with your team mates and know how your lane or jungle is going to go and what you need to bring to the table in that field.

Now, onto my suggestions. I'll start with the ban suggestion. I think it would be very nice for the team captain to be able to select 3 champions and stick them in their ban pool for the queue. Just like normal draft, this will prevent that team from running into those champions. This also means that if both team captains pick the same bans, there will only be three bans on the table for that game instead of the standard 6 that you see in draft or ranked. (This number of ban picks for the captain should remain the same number as the number of bans in draft or ranked. I know there are no plans to increase the number of bans right now but that may change in the future.)

My other suggestion is that when queuing up for this, you pick your role, your position, and then 3 champions you can choose from once with your team. This will allow players like myself to pick say Sejuani, Nautilus, and Amumu for my options to switch between to help strengthen the team comp once I'm with my team and we discuss a little. To add to this, the team captain could potentially have the option to accept a player, but when doing so mark one of their champions as someone they don't want to be played giving that player 2 options to mesh with the team, instead of 3. I feel this would promote team strategy before finding an opposing team and help with queue times if they have a small pool they picked before going into queue.

If one of you lovely rioters could acknowledge this post, even if you don't agree with it, I'd greatly appreciate it. I very much look forward to reading your views regarding these three points and I am very much looking forward to seeing this game mode.
You can change your masteries and runes at any point in the lobby, and can definitely chat with your teammates about what pages you'd like to use.

A lot of players have asked whether Team Builder will have bans, and it will not. Team Builder is a new re-design of Champion Select, and is focused on the core experience. We've considered how a Team Builder "draft mode" might look like, but that's not the focus of the initial experiments.

I agree that there's a lot of potential value in allowing players to multi-select Champions or Roles, and allow team leaders to choose which one they are interested in; however, there's a lot of complexity to these designs--especially from the tech side. For example, if 2 players are suggested to a party, and both of them have Miss Fortune as a proposed champion, then we now have to consider additional collision cases. From a Game Design side, if you allow multi-select Champion designs you now force team leaders to choose the preferred champion among a mix of 3 (or however many you propose). If you propose only 1 Champion, say a B Class Champion, many players will say "OK, that's fine, let's play!" If you propose 3 Champions, a B Class with 2 A Class Champions, you now actually hurt champion diversity because you force team leaders to make a value judgment here and many will opt to select the A Class Champions even if they were OK playing with the B Class.

These are all solvable problems, but we wanted to focus on getting the core experience to players first. Then collect feedback, and iterate as we go.


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Nicodemous

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKenNoisewater View Post
Look. They designed the game to work a certain way and made certain characters to do certain things. I mean the game is designed the way they want it to. So how can we all get pissed because they chose to enforce the game they want it played? I don't care either way, though I am biased because of all the *******s and trolls that this game has. If this is going to enforce better, more cooperative teamplay, then I'm all for it. But we can't get pissed because RIOT wants their game played the way they want it to be played. Not understanding that is just naive.

"But the meta!"

If you like the meta, you're in luck. If you don't like the meta (most of these people end up ****ting all over the games I play and ruining them, so yea, I like to stick to it) then nothing has really changed, from my perspective at least. I mean the meta works if everyone plays it. Maybe it's not the meta that's broken. Maybe you're ruining it. Just a thought.

All I'm saying is, don't criticize Riot because they didn't do what you want with their game. Yea they take feedback, so I'm not telling them not to listen. Hell, maybe the feedback made this "upgrade" possible. So maybe the vocal majority won today. Regardless, if you are *****ing because you didn't get your way on something that has nothing to do with you, grow up.
Riot has said time and again they do not officially support the current, or any, meta game. But then they go and make a system that cements the current meta game.


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Zyaph

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Firstly, I absolutely love this idea. Especially if I have 3 other buddies and we need a 5th who doesn't mind taking the extra role.
Second;
I know you said you want this to be it's own type of matchmaking for the time being, but how would this be implemented in Ranked if it ever gets there? A big part of ranked it counter picking the other team. I think a modified version of this would be nice. Something similar but focused more on what role you want instead of what champion. I know this has been suggested before, but a queue where you select your preferred roles, then discuss with your team in champ select(or possibly a pre-selection lobby).

Just found this image on google, though I've seen it here before.


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meiam

Junior Member

10-16-2013

Hey nice feature but a few question

1) To me my role/champion matter much less than whether I'm on blue team or red team, so is there a way to say "I only want to play on blue team"? This greatly affect my champion choice, currently if I'm on blue team I don't mind being jungler or support, but I hate playing support on red team and will always try to be jungler on red side.

2) Can the leader change what there looking for after starting to look for player? Say after talking it out they decide that they don't want a mage bottom but a marksman.

3) Any way to select you're attitude in the game, say "I really want to win" or "I just wanna try out a new build" or something similar, or maybe just a way to numerically number yourself, like "I think I'm a 4/10" or something, and be matched with similar minded person and also similarly minded opponent.

4) Isn't there a risk that solo queue will become even more of a toxic environment because most open minded people will flock to this mode leaving solo queue with everyone else.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

10-16-2013
82 of 101 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryotra View Post
As someone who would like a chance at playing Hiemerdinger, I would expect with the current Donger for queue times to hit the 2 hr mark on a regular basis.

Fact of the matter is, champs with poor treatment from riot get poor treat ment ingame. Go figure. On the few times I have managed to grab heimer mid, It has been a pretty consistant experience:

1. Have team trash talk me out of the gate
2. do well in lane, team keeps talking trash
3. get ganked repeatedly with increasing amounts of players till I die or lose tower
4. still no help from team, moment I die/lose tower, my whole team jumps into attack heimer player mode
5. get no help all game
6. end up backdooring because team refuses to play with me, and makes plays that intentionally screw me as heimer(pretend to go in, then as the enemy team comes close do everything in their power to offer me up. I'm talking trundle pillars, anivia walls, Blitz pull then walks, I've even had a Janna flash behind their team to ult them into me.)

End of the day is that any champs that Riot forgets get screwed hard. I don't see this system as a good thing, because this is pretty standard treatment. Anyone who wants to play their fav champ will get screwed if that champ is not popular, or is popular as a troll pick.
We believe perceived less popular Champions will get increased play and better experiences in Team Builder. In the current environment, you're choosing a Heimerdinger and forcing that intention upon other players--sometimes players are cool with that, and sometimes players are not. That's hit and miss, and not an ideal experience for any of the players in the lobby.

In Team Builder, if you choose Heimerdinger and get accepted into a group, you're already in a group that has seen your intentions to play Heimerdinger and said "Hey, we're cool with that." In addition, the research shows that players are very willing to play with a diverse pool of champions. davin's group did a lot of research on non-standard team compositions and champions and over and over again, players were happy to play with them.


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Al3x4ndar

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Definitely 1 of the best updates. However I'd like to see few improvements. Either to queue up only for role+lane (this can be done for future draft mode) without selecting champion, or the ability to change champion to fit the team comp better. To avoid abuse, you can make it that player can request champion change and then team either captain can approve it or the rest of the teammates are voting.

In case you're worried people would get kicked often in blind mode if selecting only role+lane without champion because of their picks, you can make it that you pick few champions and when you queue up for the role team captain can see that list of potential champions (up to 5 for example) that you'd like to play.