@Morello About the current state of fighters

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PopeDonger420

Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Gaming View Post
I disagree. She is only in a decent spot because she not very spectacular at all. I don't think this is a good spot for any champ to be in. It may just come down to a difference of opinions (EVERY champ has its die hards that will throw a fit if they get changed...even poppy...) but I would love a complete relaunch of Irelia. The past ones have shown Riot knows how to very successfully keep identity of a champ in tact while creating a more meaningful place in the game.
Lately it seems lackluster with the exception of Yi and Sejuani. Olaf though is something to look at as time goes by.


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Gorkins

Senior Member

10-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Some stuff worked out, bunch more in progress. Details to follow once things are a bit closer to ready, lot of iteration and discussion still underway right now.

And yeah, Miss Fortune's niche is the ADC you pick when you want to try for some degree of AOE team comp strat (see Curse of the Sad BulletTime strats from earlier this season). She's got some other stuff going on as well of course (strong early laner, good against healing champs, decent map movement), though those attributes are secondary and shared to some degree with a number of other ADCs. Also important to note that, when a champion's got a clear niche like that, there'll be times when they're a more common pick and times when they're less common, based off the popular strats and team comps at the time. That's something that's quite healthy for the game (within limits of course, 100% or 0%, to go for the extreme example, would be a major problem).

So is Garen on the side of leaning towards a niche we want to flesh out a little more, or is Garen one of the fighters you think needs to be drastically changed?


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Saint of Gaming

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeDonger420 View Post
Lately it seems lackluster with the exception of Yi and Sejuani. Olaf though is something to look at as time goes by.
Yeah in particular I felt like Yi and Sejuani were very well done but I am also in the apparently minority that loved every single change to Garen. I am also really excited about the Xerath relaunch and I loved Trundle's relaunch as well. It could just come down to personal preference, but I generally have a lot of confidence in the rework team.

Only ones I have been really deflated with are Olaf's (as you mention) and Karma's. It seems like SmashGizmo is definitely giving his attention to continuing to tweak Olaf though so I'm not up in arms. S/he seems to understand the right approach to take in this matter.

In terms of Karma.....you can't win every battle haha.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
And yeah, Miss Fortune's niche is the ADC you pick when you want to try for some degree of AOE team comp strat (see Curse of the Sad BulletTime strats from earlier this season). She's got some other stuff going on as well of course (strong early laner, good against healing champs, decent map movement), though those attributes are secondary and shared to some degree with a number of other ADCs. Also important to note that, when a champion's got a clear niche like that, there'll be times when they're a more common pick and times when they're less common, based off the popular strats and team comps at the time. That's something that's quite healthy for the game (within limits of course, 100% or 0%, to go for the extreme example, would be a major problem).
So are you telling me that once gap-closing assassins and bruisers go out of style, Miss Fortune will start being favourable ADC again? Because as much as I love playing her, it's difficult to justify it in solo queue Ranked games.


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PopeDonger420

Member

10-15-2013

bump


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Best Fiora AU

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
W

One thing I can mention at the moment though is that we're looking to create more distinctive niches for fighters. Right now a number of our fighters are somewhat interchangeable in terms of the gameplay experience they offer and what they bring to a team.
I find it really odd that you say this.

One of the most recent fighter "releases" was the Yi rework, yet this made him almost functionally identical to Fiora, with gapcloser, attackspeed/movespeed steroid, phasing/untargetability AD aoe damage move, middling sustain and AD steroid.

If champion designs continue like this, how is it going to be possible to differentiate between fighters anyway?


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-15-2013
5 of 6 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by Mynt View Post
If you want to remove her power, maybe it's better to instead just make it more readable.

She heals from two sources, for different proportions based on what she's hitting, and under what circumstances. An opponent won't know this--they see an HP bar rising at puzzling amounts, or worse, failing to drop as much as expected. For me at least, it took practicing Irelia myself before I understand where the power was in her kit, and how to fight her. In particular, I never realized how much damage and healing was packed into her ult. when used against champion, because while I was watching her lane, I would always see it healing for 2/5ths the amount, which is a weird proportion.

For non-Irelia players, they face this big cloud of uncertainty which realistically makes her difficult to fight. Little things that mess with a person's expectations such as her Tenacity going up in the presence of multiple enemies. Hard to tell if that stun lasted 0.1 seconds fewer, or did a lag spike just occur.

Normalizing all this stuff is going to make fighting Irelia less irritating, without forcing her to be a weak at her defining role--Fighting. Dying in lane doesn't have to lack satisfaction. But it will if the player doesn't understand why they lossed, or how they were outplayed.
Readability's really valuable, completely agree, and improving that on Irelia would help her playing against case. There's some overlap there with an insufficiently clear niche, they are different issues though.

Removing invisible power's an important thing to do, not because it nerfs a champion, but because it lets you add visible power in exchange. A champion's power being visible makes them more satisfying to play as (you can appreciate the effect you have on the game and make skilled plays as a result) and improves readablity playing against (resulting in better counterplay and less enemy frustration).


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Ralik098

Senior Member

10-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Readability's really valuable, completely agree, and improving that on Irelia would help her playing against case. There's some overlap there with an insufficiently clear niche, they are different issues though.

Removing invisible power's an important thing to do, not because it nerfs a champion, but because it lets you add visible power in exchange. A champion's power being visible makes them more satisfying to play as (you can appreciate the effect you have on the game and make skilled plays as a result) and improves readablity playing against (resulting in better counterplay and less enemy frustration).
Does this mean that Irelia will be seeing changes in your S4 fighter project?


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Splinterheart

Senior Member

10-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Readability's really valuable, completely agree, and improving that on Irelia would help her playing against case. There's some overlap there with an insufficiently clear niche, they are different issues though.

Removing invisible power's an important thing to do, not because it nerfs a champion, but because it lets you add visible power in exchange. A champion's power being visible makes them more satisfying to play as (you can appreciate the effect you have on the game and make skilled plays as a result) and improves readablity playing against (resulting in better counterplay and less enemy frustration).
Meddler, I don't think this is derailing as the thread I'm about to link is asking about Irelia's current state, but could you or Morello swing by IreliaCarrysYou's thread about her and answer some of his questions?
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=3950109
The thread's steadily gaining traction, and quite frankly as an Irelia player myself, I'm be curious.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

10-15-2013

So do you intend to make melee carries function correctly in team fights by turning them into stat stacks?

Or does the systems work you guys are currently working on include giving melee carries options in team fights that allow them to be slippery and difficult to pin down, so they can be squishy but still effective, like fizz for example?