Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Storm Frog

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Good idea. we want to overhaul this a bit anyway at some point in the next few months.
I'll look forward to that then.


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Heathenl

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Isn't Vladimir's design anti-fun? His passive makes him to hard to burst down and his pool makes it to difficult to stop him from recovery. This is all made worse by the fact that he is able to carry with his heal/nuke, and his Damage amplification ultimate.


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Bubskee

Senior Member

11-20-2010

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Originally Posted by Heathenl View Post
Isn't Vladimir's design anti-fun?
As Zileas has stated, it's a process of optimization, not just a black and white issue.

Vlad's Sanguine Pool is a great example, I think, of how you compromise a little with un-fun (sion getting his stun dodged, ashe's arrow going right over), to get lots of fun (escape skill that doubles as an offensive maneuver/mass slow, counter-aggro mechanic that's easy to understand but difficult to use effectively, I could go on). I think Vlad is one of the design triumphs of this game. Perhaps he does need to be tweaked in order for balance to remain, but his skillset/role/manaless mage stuff is just plain very cool, imho.

If anything, between the design of complicated and enjoyable heroes like Vlad and posts by designers like the OP in this thread, we should all (as consumers and players) be madly excited about the future prospects for LoL. The sky's the limit.

My hat's off to you, Zileas, and all you guys at Riot. Thanks for letting us into your head a little bit.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

11-20-2010

I don't find melee near as "fun" as ranged 90% of the time due to how anti-melee LoL is. Sometimes I want to play a melee, but if I don't want to jungle (and I don't) it's really not normally a good idea.

How do you balance something like that?


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anubomb

Senior Member

11-20-2010

I understand burden of knowledge doesn't make sense if you have to be told of it to take advantage of it, but isn't there a way for you guys to develop more complex counter mechanics than the super obvious ones like dark bind? Mechanics that you can learn as you play more and more against that character?

Honestly this game needs more innovating mechanics. I haven't seen anything new added to the gameplay in literally ages. Every single new champion that comes out is a mix up of old ones. The gameplay needs some shakeup, it's getting incredibly stale.


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banthor11

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Amadi made some very good points on your anti-patterns. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

Unreliability: Ganglplank and Veigar are huge examples of this. I've seen Gangplanks take people with reasonable HP to zero with his ultimate and even score a triple kill, However, on other occasions I've seen it not hit a single person. Veigar skill shot does solid damage and is key to his combo, but landing it relies on him also landing Event Horizon which isn't completely reliable for a number of reasons.

Looking at newer characters, take Irelia's slow//stun. For initiating purposes its much more clear what it will do, but in team fights where a lot of damage and heals being flung everywhere its difficult to predict and getting the stun isn't guaranteed. This is also an example of conflicting purpose in which its a good initiator but it also helps turn around a 1v1 that went sour by giving you a stun (Just an example).

Big discussion here: Win-more designs

I'd also like to hear Zileas opinion on snowball items. I personally dislike them because they are a "win-more" item.

If you're doing well ,kills with rare deaths are already rewarding you gold, experience, and time advantages over members of the other team. These, in turn, translate into superior damage and survivability through levels and items. Snowball items are most effective in games that you're already winning, thus helping you "win-more".

In addition to that, snowball items need to be bought rather early in a game so they can reach their full potential later in the game. However, the player is placing a lot of hope on on getting enough stacks quickly enough to have a huge impact on the game. Effectively, players are gambling on their early-mid game and that they won't get shut down or denied killing blows. I find this to be a rather troubling design.

Now, Leviathan and Sword of the Occult seem to be uncommon, but Mejaj's Soulstealer gets used frequently. This looks to be a red flag that a deeper problem exists with champions that primarily use abilities.

Well, that's it for now. Wouldn't mind hearing what your thoughts are on this matter, Zileas.


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Bubskee

Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
I don't find melee near as "fun" as ranged 90% of the time due to how anti-melee LoL is. Sometimes I want to play a melee, but if I don't want to jungle (and I don't) it's really not normally a good idea.

How do you balance something like that?
I think you're referring to something that Ezreal (in the Irelia Champion Spotlight video) made mention of. He said that a design goal in Irelia's creation was creating a 'melee dps who could thrive in our current anti-melee metagame.'

So here's the good news: the designers recognize concerns like yours, and are actively doing things to combat trends in the metagame that they don't like. In fact, I heard tell of sweeping changes to come and I'm guessing they have something to do with the current 'anti-melee' (or, if you will, pro-ranged dps) metagame trend. Time will tell.

And here's some more good news: there are lots of melee champions who are viable laners (or so I hear) and are a lot of fun to play. Special mentions go out to Xin Zhao, Irelia, Taric, Akali, Pantheon and Olaf.

Here's the 'bad' news: the fact that everyone on your team, yourself included, wants to play Trynd or Yi and none of you want to jungle... is not a 'balance' issue. I am sorry, you have my condolences. :P

That's a bit snarky, but the hyperbole hopefully helps emphasize the point: Champion selection is a team issue. The metagame taking trends which the designers don't like is closer to being a balance issue, but it's probably more properly termed a 'metagame issue.'

You feel the current meta is too anti-melee. The evidence would suggest the designers have a similar feeling and are taking steps to change it. And there was much rejoicing.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

11-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubskee View Post
I think you're referring to something that Ezreal (in the Irelia Champion Spotlight video) made mention of. He said that a design goal in Irelia's creation was creating a 'melee dps who could thrive in our current anti-melee metagame.'

So here's the good news: the designers recognize concerns like yours, and are actively doing things to combat trends in the metagame that they don't like. In fact, I heard tell of sweeping changes to come and I'm guessing they have something to do with the current 'anti-melee' (or, if you will, pro-ranged dps) metagame trend. Time will tell.

And here's some more good news: there are lots of melee champions who are viable laners (or so I hear) and are a lot of fun to play. Special mentions go out to Xin Zhao, Irelia, Taric, Akali, Pantheon and Olaf.

Here's the 'bad' news: the fact that everyone on your team, yourself included, wants to play Trynd or Yi and none of you want to jungle... is not a 'balance' issue. I am sorry, you have my condolences. :P

That's a bit snarky, but the hyperbole hopefully helps emphasize the point: Champion selection is a team issue. The metagame taking trends which the designers don't like is closer to being a balance issue, but it's probably more properly termed a 'metagame issue.'

You feel the current meta is too anti-melee. The evidence would suggest the designers have a similar feeling and are taking steps to change it. And there was much rejoicing.
I agree with that statement: Pro-Ranged DPS.


The idea of Ranged DPS is supposed to be "safe support fire" They aren't supposed to be your heavy hitters . . . but, oh, they are.


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Amadi

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Senior Member

11-21-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubskee View Post
And here's some more good news: there are lots of melee champions who are viable laners (or so I hear) and are a lot of fun to play. Special mentions go out to Xin Zhao, Irelia, Taric, Akali, Pantheon and Olaf.
Olaf is definitely a jungler, Irelia is barely viable, Xin and Akali both should jungle unless your team already has a jungler, and Taric barely ever actually hits things in melee, and when he does, it's to reduce the cooldown of his heal.

Akali is also an AP Burst Mage, rather than a melee DPS. Champions that aim to get to melee, stay there for more than four seconds without turning invis or anything, and constantly hitting opponents are really rare and barely viable. Xin and Olaf are probably the only examples.

The issue isn't in the champions themselves. The issue is in itemization. Both melee and ranged champions scale equally well with items, and ranged champions can invest more in offense than melee champions.


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Kithas48

Senior Member

11-21-2010

Another thing on the death recaps;
Sometimes it takes longer than say 5 seconds for you to die and the recap only shows say the last 800hp you lost on a tank character. This really doesn't help me as a tank because it doesnt tell me whether the majority of the damage I took (and therefore what Items I need to buy) are physical or magical.
if the death recaps where all 100% of your hp and only showed the 9 highest %ages of damage this would be greaatly improved.