@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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Ginga

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10-13-2013

Oi Morello, if you're still here I have some suggestions to compensate to those severe nerfs.


I have TWO main suggestions I hope you can take into consideration and give some feedback to.

First of all, if you really want to make her more plant-focused, I think you should start with parts of her kit that doesn't do a thing with her plants, namely her Passive. It was literally a placeholder Passive that doesn't fit her in anyway at all, so I think that may be a good start.



Passive - Vigorous Pollination: Zyra is pollinated by her spawn. She generates Seedlings at an increased rate for each plant on the field up to a maximum of X seedlings.

Zyra is not just a plant, but a FEMALE plant. What if she were a really fertile female and her Passive lets her pollinate like from her plants? This Passive will encourage her to not just summon plants, but to do so smartly. To summon her plants in a way to keep them alive rather than simply throwing them into the opponent.


Second is a modification of her plant mechanics.


From now on her plants comes in 5 levels. Level 1 being incredibly weak and fragile, while level 5 being incredibly sturdy, enough to survive a teamfight long enough to be relevant. When a plant is summoned, they start off at level 1. The plant gradually matures the more it attacks, going from 1 to 5. Zyra may summon a Seedling near the plant to heal the plant and accelerate their maturation to the next level. Alternatively, Zyra may choose to cast the spell that spawned the plant in the first place on the plant again, doing so will kill the plant and grow two plants that are two levels lower than the one you sacrificed.



These changes are designed to give Zyra the ability to have a lot more plants around than she currently can, or if she wants, a small number of large really sturdy plants.




The intention of the Passive is to compensate for the excessive nerfs to her W, to give her a Passive relevant to her playstyle, and to steer her towards a more plant-friendly playstyle like you want. It encourages you to protect and cultivate your plants, and it gives her a "nature is taking over!" theme as the better she does, the more plants there will be in the battleground. The intention of the changes to her plants is to make Zyra players put more thoughts into how they position her plants, to take care of Zyra's babies. On the other side of the coin, it also gives Zyra's opponents more counter-play to Zyra's plants too. They may attempt to aggressively kill Zyra's plants while they're still young, or focus the plants down. If the plants are down, Zyra gets less plants to pollinate her and she generates seedlings slower. Not to mention, the killing of a level 5 plant will erase a lot of hardwork Zyra will have put into cultivating it. The enemy player has MUCH more incentives to pay attention to Zyra's plants now, while Zyra herself has much more incentive to think about how she summons them and what to do with each plant.



Now, how will this Zyra with her new plants not work out in lane as well as she currently does? Her damage output will not be nearly as high as they are not as it takes longer for her plants to mature, not to mention, with the method her plants matures, she will be less ideal as a support as she will forcefully push the lane or even still cs from the ADC. If the ADC is constantly trying to farm with Zyra's plants around, her plants won't have as much food as they would have in mid, hence they take far longer to mature, keeping them in immature states much longer. Replacing her true damage Passive will also hurt her more as a Support than as an AP mid(I hope).


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TomatoTamago

Senior Member

10-15-2013

When Zyra is released,i look at her and her name,She suppose to be more THORNY than planty,otherwise why RISE OF THE THORN?


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Silence Falls

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yeah - I think they're more in control mage territory (you pick them for their utility or other functions, not raw damage).
Unfortunately, she just doesn't have the kit to be a control mage like Lissandra. Just compare the two. Lissandra's ult is an instant cast stun. That's it, it's done, no counterplay, very controlling. Zyra's is AoE, yeah, but unless they're really begging for it in a Baron pit, they can run/flash out pretty easily. Lissandra has both a 4 second CD slow and a 10 second CD snare. Compare, instead, to Zyra's root. Sure, it's pretty good with slow plants, but it doesn't compare when you consider Lissandra's Glacial Path to either get into fights or out of fights nearly instantly.

Lissandra is able to just be a control mage because she has a kit without a lot of counterplay and low burst. Zyra NEEDS that burst because her kit doesn't have the control of a control mage and she isn't mobile at all.

I, personally, really like the spot Zyra is in. She is viable in support or mid, and let's be honest, her pick/ban/win rates just do not reflect what the people crying for nerfs are claiming. If she was as strong as these people say, she would be like Thresh and 100% pick or ban.


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TomatoTamago

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Lissandra skills is absolute control,her CC wont miss,instant snare and stun,nobody can escape.However Zyra skills is more likely to be able to be dodge.d


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Zahlfast

Junior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Oh, the range tweak is likely needed overall, even for mid. We can likely add power into plants if we shorten her kill range overall. I missed that point, sorry!

There is some compensation for that primarily for mid Zyra inc in 3.13 on that too, last I checked.
Hm, perhaps I missed this in the patch description, but I do not see evidence of compensatory increases in plant power alongside all the nerfs. Unless this refers to 'usability' changes where the plants spawn appropriately instead of leaving seeds behind. But I must say I have not had a problem with this very often at all.


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Ginga

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10-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomatoTamago View Post
Lissandra skills is absolute control,her CC wont miss,instant snare and stun,nobody can escape.However Zyra skills is more likely to be able to be dodge.d
Actually it turns out Lissandra's CC is dodgeable...sort of. Apparently it's possible to flash when she ults you.


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
Actually it turns out Lissandra's CC is dodgeable...sort of. Apparently it's possible to flash when she ults you.
yes but you need to be super korean to do that.


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Ginga

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10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomatoTamago View Post
When Zyra is released,i look at her and her name,She suppose to be more THORNY than planty,otherwise why RISE OF THE THORN?
Funny you mention that, because quite a few people actually complained about her title making no sense even by LoL standards. Queen of Thorns. Lady or Thorns. etc. etc.

Rise of the Thorns can only really be used as a tagline for a B-list monster movie...or A-list pornography.


But let's get back to talking about Zyra's latest series of over-nerfs.


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Yakkou

Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silence Falls View Post
Unfortunately, she just doesn't have the kit to be a control mage like Lissandra. Just compare the two. Lissandra's ult is an instant cast stun. That's it, it's done, no counterplay, very controlling. Zyra's is AoE, yeah, but unless they're really begging for it in a Baron pit, they can run/flash out pretty easily. Lissandra has both a 4 second CD slow and a 10 second CD snare. Compare, instead, to Zyra's root. Sure, it's pretty good with slow plants, but it doesn't compare when you consider Lissandra's Glacial Path to either get into fights or out of fights nearly instantly.

Lissandra is able to just be a control mage because she has a kit without a lot of counterplay and low burst. Zyra NEEDS that burst because her kit doesn't have the control of a control mage and she isn't mobile at all.

I, personally, really like the spot Zyra is in. She is viable in support or mid, and let's be honest, her pick/ban/win rates just do not reflect what the people crying for nerfs are claiming. If she was as strong as these people say, she would be like Thresh and 100% pick or ban.
I see Zyra more as a kiting mage assuming her pursuer has no gap closer.

Her snare is easier to land on pursuers than those you are laning against, her plants deal a bit of damage to those chasing you as you run away. And her ultimate is like a spider web to trap any persistent pursuer who runs into whatever trap you were leading them to.


That's the intention I think.


The insane W nerfs certainly isn't going to help with that.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-16-2013
14 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina George View Post
We've heard that before, please pardon our skepticism.
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.