There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
33 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Trynda View Post
Perhaps when the new forum features start rolling out you can do a more controlled interaction with the community, rather than getting all muddy on the forums. Like a panel of questions every week. That way you can focus your attention on questions that actually have merit, rather than those rooted in ignorance.
I'm hoping - I tend to notice the discussions on the Reddit AMA's have that strength (and we can deliver more info!)


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Rockman

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.
Now Morello. You say this, but most of the time you move like molasses when it comes to trying to give strength back to characters who need it. Master Yi's rework was very strong when it was released, but now people consider him to be weaker then his old self by alot. But wasn't the intention of the rework to make him into a balancable state? I can forgive you with Olaf since you need more time, but Katarina and Master Yi have both been reworked for awhile now and you seem to move very slow when giving power back. Like... I understand the point of reworking so you can balance them. You just seem to not be doing the second part for some reworks.


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Vsin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.
Oh, I've made the argument of "Balancing for best and worse cases" regarding Olaf's rework to say that he's in an even harder place to balance than he was before.

...barring that though, much of my personal vitriol stems from the idea that Riot has consistently shown that they're afraid to push champions into that "balanced" state for fear of the illusive abuse case that breaks them completely...yet once they do so, it's only after so much slow balance prodding that the pick in question ends up overtuned to insanity simply because of the lack of exposure during the slow tuning process.

Although admittedly, that may be more the community's fault for actively excluding anything not FotM from socially acceptable play.


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Nosef

Senior Member

10-12-2013

I still don't buy your arguements for the gimped range. Her kit doesn't give her a significantly stronger setup than other ranged ADCs, and they all have a higher base range. How is giving her an essentially QoL buff to her range (25) gonna affect her use of Q? She's still gonna use Q at max range, then have to walk into the other ADC range to do anything else. And Q is her only dmg ability. Isn't the logic behind Nid's spears being so strong because that is her main power in human form? Why can she have a strong, long range harass tool but not have to have 500 range?

I simply can't wrap my head around what makes her so strong she has to be at a range disadvantage.


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ExjK

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xiDIzE View Post
It doesn't really matter if a champion is balanceable if you guys are just going to nerf it when it reaches a balanced state anyway. Seems to me you would rather keep niche/nonviable picks like Sivir just the way they are so that you don't have to nerf them when they finally hit a 50% win rate and pros start playing them in tournaments. Some champions get the chance to be FoTM, others don't.
This is a naturally occurring phenomena in this type of game, why are you so surprised by it? You also assume that the "niche/nonviable picks" are bad simply because they are not competitive worthy. What's "viable" in competitive fluctuates based on community standards/popular compositions and playstyles...which means that sourcing your opinions based on what is popular in competitive is a poor way of judging champion balance. It's a good source to monitor for champion balance...but basing your opinions off of it is horrid.


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aperson1

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.
woah, calm down morello. no offense, what you're saying is true, but saying "i don't have time to tell these plebes why they're wrong" isn't going to make anyone of these posters turn around and say "oh, i guess i should stop making uninformative posts and actually think about the impact of these changes," it's gonna make 'em say "omg moarjello hates me n my favorite champs gg riot dosnet understand"


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hashinshin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.
If you want we could start a video game design debate club. Or better yet it appears your issue is a lack of clarity and that's due to the fact you're trying to walk in to an ant hill and talk to every ant. What you need are youtube videos discussing the changes. Actual discussion. And with multiple developers and even ones that disagree with the changes being made (god willing you still have developers with multiple opinions!)

If you want we could set up a weekly youtube series where I just yell crazily at you and you retort for 10 minutes.

And I'm starting to feel like I'm never gonna get that game of civilization.


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matrinox

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoRarr View Post
itt: is this champion properly balanced? probably not, but we're okay with subpar results over here @ riot games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
ftfy (sorry, I had to take the shot).
Morello, this is why most big companies don't ever respond to their customers. You get so many trolls or people who don't know how to express their thoughts without being ragey, throwing temper-tandrums and hyperboles. Most companies just change things and wait for their customers to get used to it. I'm glad you guys are out there dealing with these kids 'cause I sure as hell wouldn't be too happy by the end of it.


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Mistiya

Member

10-12-2013

I'm starting to feel that Sivir's short range wouldn't be an issue if Caitlyn didn't exist. Being slightly outranged vs. another Marksman isn't a terrible issue, but the Caitlyn's advantage is so large that it warps botlane and makes it so the lower range carries simply get bullied out of relevance.


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0xiDIzE

Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
Now Morello. You say this, but most of the time you move like molasses when it comes to trying to give strength back to characters who need it. Master Yi's rework was very strong when it was released, but now people consider him to be weaker then his old self by alot. But wasn't the intention of the rework to make him into a balancable state? I can forgive you with Olaf since you need more time, but Katarina and Master Yi have both been reworked for awhile now and you seem to move very slow when giving power back. Like... I understand the point of reworking so you can balance them. You just seem to not be doing the second part for some reworks.
Bingo. Riot is far too afraid of the backlash that actual balance on any given champion brings. That's why we rarely see buffs to champions, even during a rework. So strong (and balanced) champions become weak, and weak champions just become weaker. The only way any champion gets stronger in this game is by having absolutely everything around them nerfed.

I don't think the majority of the champions in this game are in an unbalanceable state. Riot tends to just give up on them too easily and fall back on reworks. I can guess with a fair amount of certainty that Irelia, for example is going to fall into this category of "problem cases" for Riot, despite having some number-oriented solutions available. And the rework will end up being a nerf despite all her previous nerfs.