There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
32 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minishmaster View Post
"Her kit is basically trash but we can throw some stats on it to make her good" is exactly the problem you are trying to fix with bruisers.

Interestingly, enough, now that I think about it, your post becomes very amusing when you replace "sivir" with "olaf".
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.


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Luscious Lenny

Senior Member

10-12-2013

ONE MORE TIME BEFORE I TAKE A BREAK FROM THE FORUMS

make atleast one of these happan morello. Statikk like does not respond to anything at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - she'd be really strong like this.
Don't buff her range

Her W needs base damage. (heavily nerfed her crit sustain damage) 250 a crit. at max rank

AA animation needs to be cleaned up. (like you did with ryze)

base attack speed needs to be buffed back up. (6.2 come on man)

Do this and she will be a damm good adc


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ExjK

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerminalVeloc1ty View Post
I don't like champions with lower than average attack range because you can get zoned out easily by the likes of Caitlyn, who's a really really common pick right now.
So? You would only get "poked" out during the early laning phase...Sivirs kit shines in the mid-late game because she brute forces her way through lanes with fast and strategical pushes. She doesn't need auto attack range to q/w her enemies into their tower. If all you care about is the first 10 minutes of laning then I have bad news for you...your mindset toward mechanics in this game is awful.


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Khristophoros

The Council

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
Well Morello's been pushing for it having moments where it's down. Very intent on Sivir having her "moment of weakness" while she has to wait on CD's before she can begin her onslaught again. If you just increased the bounces (he said thats what they would do instead of changing the CD) it would make the most sense on her ult. I don't know how much would be good, but 3 isn't enough for a sustained DPS champ.
Well my idea is W is still 3 hits normally, but when you ult you get unlimited bounces until the ult ends. You can tune the ult duration. Freeze W cooldown while ult is going.

But while ult is on CD you are limited to W's limitations.

I think that setup has enough levers to tune.


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Vsin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes Boobs View Post
so then WHY THE **** DOES JINX HAVE AOE AUTO ATTACK TOGGLE

but for sivir it is untunable?
Ricochet is a wacky beast compared to Fishbones. The potential area of effect is far greater than the blast radius of Fishbones, and it didn't cause Sivir's AS to fall through the floor. Meanwhile, Fishbones is more or less only balanceable because it can be coded to ignore the AS buff from Pow-Pow (forcing you to the rock-bottom Base AS), and the blast radius is barely larger than old Tiamat.

In other words, the best case for Ricochet (before considering Sivir's AA range) is considerably more practical and more powerful than Fishbones.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.
Perhaps when the new forum features start rolling out you can do a more controlled interaction with the community, rather than getting all muddy on the forums. Like a panel of questions every week. That way you can focus your attention on questions that actually have merit, rather than those rooted in ignorance.


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Isysar

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.
For what it's worth Morello (and I'm a bad mouthed idiot), you've taught me! You've educated one person! I have faith in you guys and I now understand balancable vs balanced/strong. But can I sympathize with your frustration. Don't give up us! Even angry people like me that get mad when the Olaf rework isn't perfect and I think ranged champions are overpowered.


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0xiDIzE

Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, you need to read the posts. Her kit is good now, and perhaps not tuned correctly. Therefore, we should tune it correctly.

And this is why so much thrash happens on GD. There's little understanding the difference between balanced and balancable. If it's not the strongest, it's trash, and its design is trash.

FFS. The disagreements don't bother me (those can be very good!) the anger doesn't bother me, it's that I don't have time to teach 10's of millions of people about game design, but they want to tell you how much they know about how to do it. And without it, it will be a lot of posts like this that taunt me into posting on them instead of something good.
It doesn't really matter if a champion is balanceable if you guys are just going to nerf it when it reaches a balanced state anyway. Seems to me you would rather keep niche/nonviable picks like Sivir just the way they are so that you don't have to nerf them when they finally hit a 50% win rate and pros start playing them in tournaments. Some champions get the chance to be FoTM, others don't.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExjK View Post
So? You would only get "poked" out during the early laning phase...Sivirs kit shines in the mid-late game because she brute forces her way through lanes with fast and strategical pushes. She doesn't need auto attack range to q/w her enemies into their tower. If all you care about is the first 10 minutes of laning then I have bad news for you...your mindset toward mechanics in this game is awful.

If you can't get the gold or live through the laning phase, mid-late game isn't going to matter. I think the entire reason why people hate low range AA champions is because they're far too vulnerable to this, and makes you feel like you're so constrained. Caitlyn is just so god damn overbearing in lane that I feel as though I need to pick champions who can exert an equal amount of pressure in lane or more. So champions like Varus and Corki do that for me.

Laning phase is not something to be scoffed at. I hate the interactions if I pick someone who's really vulnerable against cait, because it pretty much means I'm gonna have to fight for every last CS I get, which is a miserable experience when you are never in the position to counterattack.

That Minion interaction in the laning phase matters a lot, and low range on a champion can mean that you will lose s traight up to high ranged champions.


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exec3

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
I think people are just sick of Sivir being so underpowered and are desperate for anything to make her good again and simple buffs like attack range are the most obvious things that would buff her power and make her relevant.

I for one am cautiously optimistic of these changes and greatly appreciate yours and other Rioters coming to explain things. I want Sivir to be good and if she's good in a unique way that's even better! Please don't let others discourage you from continuing to post.

I wonder why Sivir has been getting so much hate with this VU/rework.