There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Critkeeper

Senior Member

10-12-2013

I don't mean to be a stickler, but technically MR reduction does the same thing.

Recall that each point of magic resist increases your effective health versus magic damage by 1% of your actual hp.

So 40 magic resist reduction is more effective against higher health targets. It is especially effective when the target doesn't have very much magic resist to begin with.

The NNNN represents the tankiness due to health, and the MMMM represents the tankiness due to magic resist.

{NNNNNNNNNN}{MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM}

Here is a target with 2000 health and 200 magic resist, for effectively 6000 hp versus magic damage.

{NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN}{MMMMMMMMMM}

Here is a target with 4000 health and 50 magic resist, for effectively 6000 hp versus magic damage.



Cutting out 40 magic resist in the first one will cut out 800 health verus magic damage.

{NNNNNNNNNN}{MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM}

Cutting out 40 magic resist in the second one will cut out 1600 health versus magic damage.

{NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN}{MM}

As you can see, this is because the Effective health granted by magic resist actually scales with you normal {NNN} health. The more normal health you have, the more significant each point of magic resist is. If you don't have very much and someone take away nearly all of it, its going to have a huge impact.


Thats why overall, morgana's pool change isn't really all that spectacular. If anything it is a nerf. You can't multiply your team's damage output anymore, and in order to bring it to levels that would make it worthwhile she will have to have redonkulous % health damage on it.

Here is the details for how league of legends damage system works: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3284332


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Luscious Lenny

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Don't buff her range

Her W needs base damage. (heavily nerfed her crit sustain damage) 250 plus a crit.

AA animation needs to be cleaned up. (like you did with ryze)

base attack speed needs to be buffed back up. (6.2 come on man)

Do this and she will be a damm good adc


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
29 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Thayon View Post
Wall of text incoming and i will try and be as informative and level headed in my wording and choice of words for this feedback.

Also thank you very much for taking the time to post.


I can understand not wanting to homogenize but i am going to ask what exactly are you homogenizing?

Sivir has long been a carry with great AOE potential but struggles through the laning phase to make that potential. With her current passive she can chase and kite with the best of them and with Ricochet her pushing potential was unmatched. However it has been a long time since the days when Sivir's old ricochet was overpowered and alot has changed. We now have Marksmen who are able to better protect themselves and champions who are designed to get past that protection if the marksmen plays unwisely. Because of this we have a ton of champions designed to get past a team straight to the back line (think Zed and fizz). These champions get behind the peel and tear apart the marksmen.

Someone like cait doesnt have too worry too much about this because of her safety through range.

Ezreal, Corki, Vayne all have ways of getting out of that situation through condemn, blink, or valkyrie.

ALl of them also have respectively over 500 range.

Now lets take a look at Sivir.

Her self peel is a spell shield which does nothing if fizz and Zed get to her because they are still within range of her with all of their abilities. I do not mind Sivir not having a dash or a blink but to call her ultimate a form of mobility is a bit upsetting as a team can buy a shurelias and have the same thing. So what happens now that Sivir's Ult is a glorified item? It weakens her overall.

I am going to list her weaknesses and then her strengths.

Strengths
Huge burst with Q
Great waveclear
If left alone will put out huge AOE damage to a team
Can chase and kite with the best of them if left alone
Spellshield (fantastic spell)
Team Oriented Ultimate

Weaknesses
Shortest Marksmen range
Very mana hungry despite 2 no cost spells
Most of her burst comes from a skillshot nuke that loses damage if it hits more than 1 thing
If anyone so much as sneezes at her she will blow up her base stats are that low
Low range makes for a difficult kite since most slows/ gap closers out range her by far
No way for her to get away if above scenario happens outside of blowing said team oriented ult and or summoners.


Look at the common picks my good man what do you notice?

Everyone of them is safe from ezreal to cait.
Do i want that?
NO
i do not.

But i do want to be able to compete with them in the laning phase and having a long ranged Q and a passive that only works on champions doesn't do any thing for me when i am being poked from out of range underneath my own tower.

Her claimed Niches it that she now has old ricochet in a sense and her pushing and harass is now of high levels. That is not the case as to get that pushing and harass she has to blow mana and get in range of minions to use her W but since her range is so low she will be poked out before she ever gets to a minion.

She has short range, no mobility, skillshot reliant burst, steroid is tied to ult, attack speed has been gutted to utter rubbish, her really redeeming feature her attack speed ult was turned into a glorified shurelias.

I mirror what everyone else here says and have to ask what was the goal? You took her already narrow role and made it narrower. Was it your goal to make her laning phase weak to force her into farming until she catches up because if this goes live like this she will probably not be played and if she is she will spend the majority of her time catching up in farm because of how behind she got in lane.
But isn't that also a tuning point? The ricochet and Q tuning alone can adjust that. If she's harassing enemies near minions constantly, then her zonong potential (a laning tool) is high. This is what old Sivir used to do to such a degree you had to gank her to beat her.

I think that's a problem; that the power and play conversations here are muddled. On play, I think "the ult feels bad" has some validity, but on power, I just think that stats and ricochet can get the job done.


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Typ3Cast

Member

10-12-2013

Not a fan of the no mana cost on her E now. Now even when she is OOM she can still use it.

Give her old E mana cost back, and the double mana refund if it blocks.

Or at least with the new one, if it doesn't block a spell it has a much longer CD than if it did.

I play her a lot, and really old Sivir was fine. The main reason you lose is because you get zoned from CS because of her range. Even though her ulti is a gap closer, it can be kited way too easy.

Really all she needed was range, she seems so boring now. However I can't know for sure because I have been trying for months and still can't get an account on the PBE.


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ExjK

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Thayon View Post
Wall of text incoming and i will try and be as informative and level headed in my wording and choice of words for this feedback.

Also thank you very much for taking the time to post.


I can understand not wanting to homogenize but i am going to ask what exactly are you homogenizing?

Sivir has long been a carry with great AOE potential but struggles through the laning phase to make that potential. With her current passive she can chase and kite with the best of them and with Ricochet her pushing potential was unmatched. However it has been a long time since the days when Sivir's old ricochet was overpowered and alot has changed. We now have Marksmen who are able to better protect themselves and champions who are designed to get past that protection if the marksmen plays unwisely. Because of this we have a ton of champions designed to get past a team straight to the back line (think Zed and fizz). These champions get behind the peel and tear apart the marksmen.

Someone like cait doesnt have too worry too much about this because of her safety through range.

Ezreal, Corki, Vayne all have ways of getting out of that situation through condemn, blink, or valkyrie.

ALl of them also have respectively over 500 range.

Now lets take a look at Sivir.

Her self peel is a spell shield which does nothing if fizz and Zed get to her because they are still within range of her with all of their abilities. I do not mind Sivir not having a dash or a blink but to call her ultimate a form of mobility is a bit upsetting as a team can buy a shurelias and have the same thing. So what happens now that Sivir's Ult is a glorified item? It weakens her overall.

I am going to list her weaknesses and then her strengths.

Strengths
Huge burst with Q
Great waveclear
If left alone will put out huge AOE damage to a team
Can chase and kite with the best of them if left alone
Spellshield (fantastic spell)
Team Oriented Ultimate

Weaknesses
Shortest Marksmen range
Very mana hungry despite 2 no cost spells
Most of her burst comes from a skillshot nuke that loses damage if it hits more than 1 thing
If anyone so much as sneezes at her she will blow up her base stats are that low
Low range makes for a difficult kite since most slows/ gap closers out range her by far
No way for her to get away if above scenario happens outside of blowing said team oriented ult and or summoners.


Look at the common picks my good man what do you notice?

Everyone of them is safe from ezreal to cait.
Do i want that?
NO
i do not.

But i do want to be able to compete with them in the laning phase and having a long ranged Q and a passive that only works on champions doesn't do any thing for me when i am being poked from out of range underneath my own tower.

Her claimed Niches it that she now has old ricochet in a sense and her pushing and harass is now of high levels. That is not the case as to get that pushing and harass she has to blow mana and get in range of minions to use her W but since her range is so low she will be poked out before she ever gets to a minion.

She has short range, no mobility, skillshot reliant burst, steroid is tied to ult, attack speed has been gutted to utter rubbish, her really redeeming feature her attack speed ult was turned into a glorified shurelias.

I mirror what everyone else here says and have to ask what was the goal? You took her already narrow role and made it narrower. Was it your goal to make her laning phase weak to force her into farming until she catches up because if this goes live like this she will probably not be played and if she is she will spend the majority of her time catching up in farm because of how behind she got in lane.
What do you expect Riot to do? Increase her AA range and call it a day? All it would do is put her AA/last hitting abilities on par with the other Marksmen while still retaining her insane wave clear and burst potential with q/w. Not to mention her E...

I feel like all you people care about is how good she can handle the first 10 minutes of last hitting in lane. I'm fine with you not understanding her low and frankly BALANCED auto attack range...but please do not argue for changes just because of your inability to adapt to lane situations. Sivirs low AA range is made up for by her amazing pushing ability, she will never naturally have great early game auto attack pressure...but a smart Sivir will play the passive-aggressive role so that she can take advantage of her mid-late game strengths.

Strategy and mechanics win games, not raw power or stale auto attack potential.


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Isysar

Senior Member

10-12-2013

I never played Old Sivir, who even knew that she would chew teams to pieces back in the day. I've been playing since Xin Zhao was released, but there's only a single time I've seen Sivir be effective or even used in a game of LoL, and that is Captain Jack's epic game you probably all know about.

My main issue with Sivir is that she just feels bland. I love her new VU, and I want to like her because she's an underdog and I like champions who aren't super popular. But as some people have mentioned, her kit doesn't feel like it has enough high points in it. Don't get me wrong, there's skill and satisfaction for using her Spell Shield (I suck at using it on time, but when I do it feels great and I love that it costs 0 mana now). I also love the massive CHUNK that you can do with her Q on a lone target, but . . . the rest is kinda meh.

I agree with Khristophoros that she needs some more help on her ult. I think the ult giving her a constant W for the duration is a smart idea. That would be feel like a very noticeable, impactful ult. You've still got her team utility MS buff (which is noticeable) and then this makes her feel personally powerful and makes her feel like she actually has an ultimate during the laning phase.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
30 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luscious Lenny View Post
Don't buff her range

Her W needs base damage. (heavily nerfed her crit sustain damage) 250 plus a crit.

AA animation needs to be cleaned up. (like you did with ryze)

base attack speed needs to be buffed back up. (6.2 come on man)

Do this and she will be a damm good adc
Agreed - she'd be really strong like this.


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Luscious Lenny

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - she'd be really strong like this.
thank god please pass it on morello

please man sivir literally is 1-3 hours of my day


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
31 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoRarr View Post
itt: is this champion properly balanced? doesn't matter, because i'll blame my losses on external factors instead of my ability
ftfy (sorry, I had to take the shot).


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Khristophoros

The Council

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
omg this is what she needs. it fixes her horrible sustained damage in fights since W goes on CD making your attack speed horrible again. I don't know if it's possible, since they seem intent on making Ricochet have a moment of weakness with the CD. More then likely, they could just increase the number of basics W has while ulting? hmmm?
Keep in mind the ult has a CD. So tune the duration correctly and Sivir still has meaningful moments of weakness in a fight. It shouldn't last the whole fight, but it should last a duration that feels meaningful to the Sivir player.

One thing that has to be addressed is that it would be optimal to W first, R, then W again. Freeze the current cooldown of W while ulting so that if you W first it will not be up after R ends. If you don't W first it will be up. So either way you get 1 W and 1 R.