There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Red Ryu

Senior Member

10-12-2013

I'm kinda worried about her range in relation to other carries and their DPS.
I agree her range can be worked and it does, current Sivir actually has a slugger advantage on Caitlyn because she can punish Caitlyn fir trying to play a poke lane control game very hard while pushing the lane as hard as Caitlyn.

But then Vayne shows up, she can't handle Vayne playing aggro yet Vayne with her higher range just outscales her pretty bad and can deal with Sivir initially, Sivir needs her Q to hurt with bonus AD to trade and push on Vayne.

I agree though, her spell shield is a god sent, Ashe can't ult her, she can't be grabbed by blitz or Thresh, she can't be ult dropped by Leona.

My concern is that with her limited range how she ca. Handle done one trying to just play aggro in her via autos. That is my concern is harass and trading with other carries.
Her bases stats, all but one stat is worse than Graves.


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Kildyu71

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
Regarding AA range: If an ADC is caught "out of position", they are asking for trouble. Therefore, Sivir will be constantly be asking for trouble through the whole laning phase. Great, she has a shield, and maybe some dueling capabilities, but if she doesn't come out ahead in a little duel, her shield is now on CD and she must back way off until she can think about trying to last-hit again.

One of the only ways she had to win a duel was her burst through the AA-reset on her W. Now that's gone. I have no interest in filling the lane with bouncing blades that only hit my "kill target" once. The bot lane is all about dueling, not pushing waves. It was viable to max W first because you were almost doubling your auto-attack rate by spamming W in duels, which was a lot more effective than landing half of a Q (the other half rarely lands if they're good). So... there is a lot of counter-play on her Q already, and then all she had was her burst from double-AA's. Now that's gone.

And so if I can't win any duels anymore... you expect me to ask for trouble by walking into AA range to last-hit minions? I don't think so.

The only hope that your new version of Sivir might provide is long-range poke from her W if it doesn't become useless at the end of all that bouncing, where she can just periodically harass a little bit, but on a much longer CD now, the enemy won't care if their support has any healing, or they bring 1-2 pots to lane.

I want two things:
1. higher auto-attack range. it's not homogenization, it's keeping an ADC viable against other ADC's, so that player skill and unique kits are what makes things fun and challenging. (i.e. it is not fun to have severely less auto-attack range)

2. do not change her W. it was perfect how it was. the E and R changes were needed, but do not kill the power she got from W. That was all she had...


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
28 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
Tried her on PBE.

I think her overall damage output is way undertuned. Low base attack speed, low growth, just because she has a 3 hit steroid? Trist has huge growth in addition to a massive steroid. You have more power budget to work with on Sivir easily.

I don't think there are any high points besides landing good Qs. Her ult is not a high point because all it does is movement speed. I did read your reasoning for that but I don't like it. It's like saying Malphite's ult should only be the dash and then his CC should be on the rest of his kit. I think a well designed champ will give the player some tough choices in exchange for huge high points.

Old Sivir had amazing high points because you'd ult and go nuts and throw overwhelming AoE damage out. The problem was the rest of your team also went nuts so it auto-won teamfights until it was heavily nerfed.

I have one suggestion:

Her ult should activate W for the whole duration, and it should last a lot longer for Sivir herself. Say like 12-15 seconds.

Reasoning is, Sivir's ult was broken when it was strong enough to give the Sivir player a high point because it was making her whole team go nuts for 15 seconds. After it was nerfed to a balanced state it just didn't feel good anymore. It should last longer for Sivir and do something offensive so that it feels like a good ult to use. Locking W on during it would bring back the old Sivir feel in teamfights for the duration of the ult, which would make Sivir players really happy.
Good feedback. I'll bring this up.


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Luscious Lenny

Senior Member

10-12-2013

please ill post this as many times as i need to.

Don't buff her range

Her W needs base damage. (heavily nerfed her crit sustain damage) 250 plus a crit.

AA animation needs to be cleaned up. (like you did with ryze)

base attack speed needs to be buffed back up. (6.2 come on man)

Do this and she will be a damm good adc


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Rockman

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
Tried her on PBE.

I think her overall damage output is way undertuned. Low base attack speed, low growth, just because she has a 3 hit steroid? Trist has huge growth in addition to a massive steroid. You have more power budget to work with on Sivir easily.

I don't think there are any high points besides landing good Qs. Her ult is not a high point because all it does is movement speed. I did read your reasoning for that but I don't like it. It's like saying Malphite's ult should only be the dash and then his CC should be on the rest of his kit. I think a well designed champ will give the player some tough choices in exchange for huge high points.

Old Sivir had amazing high points because you'd ult and go nuts and throw overwhelming AoE damage out. The problem was the rest of your team also went nuts so it auto-won teamfights until it was heavily nerfed.

I have one suggestion:

Her ult should activate W for the whole duration, and it should last a lot longer for Sivir herself. Say like 12-15 seconds.

Reasoning is, Sivir's ult was broken when it was strong enough to give the Sivir player a high point because it was making her whole team go nuts for 15 seconds. After it was nerfed to a balanced state it just didn't feel good anymore. It should last longer for Sivir and do something offensive so that it feels like a good ult to use. Locking W on during it would bring back the old Sivir feel in teamfights for the duration of the ult, which would make Sivir players really happy.
omg this is what she needs. it fixes her horrible sustained damage in fights since W goes on CD making your attack speed horrible again. I don't know if it's possible, since they seem intent on making Ricochet have a moment of weakness with the CD. More then likely, they could just increase the number of basics W has while ulting? hmmm?


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
In all honesty, despite the hostility of my other posts, I'm perfectly fine with Sivir having the stubby range of 500.

The problem I have, though, is that she really has nothing to compensate for that deficiency. And quite frankly, my hostile tone stems from the idea that Riot is just plain too afraid to let Ricochet become viable, in fear of the really old toggle that tore teams to shreds.
I really don't think Live Sivir is all that bad, to be honest, but that 500 range makes her so damn unsafe in teamfights. It means you really have to have spot-on with your positioning. 525 would lighten the burden just enough so that her W wouldn't need to be so much stronger. It could be an autoattack reset with some AoE and that would be just fine.

It would certainly homogenize her, but she'd still feel distinct enough while being able to perform her job adequately. Champions don't need to be off-the-wall totally, wildly different from each other to be good, they just need to be fun. I think Sivir would be more fun (and balanceable) with 525 range. A toggle might be more fun for some people but would apparently be unbalanceable.


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HandheldBrandon

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
Tried her on PBE.

I think her overall damage output is way undertuned. Low base attack speed, low growth, just because she has a 3 hit steroid? Trist has huge growth in addition to a massive steroid. You have more power budget to work with on Sivir easily.

I don't think there are any high points besides landing good Qs. Her ult is not a high point because all it does is movement speed. I did read your reasoning for that but I don't like it. It's like saying Malphite's ult should only be the dash and then his CC should be on the rest of his kit. I think a well designed champ will give the player some tough choices in exchange for huge high points.

Old Sivir had amazing high points because you'd ult and go nuts and throw overwhelming AoE damage out. The problem was the rest of your team also went nuts so it auto-won teamfights until it was heavily nerfed.

I have one suggestion:

Her ult should activate W for the whole duration, and it should last a lot longer for Sivir herself. Say like 12-15 seconds.

Reasoning is, Sivir's ult was broken when it was strong enough to give the Sivir player a high point because it was making her whole team go nuts for 15 seconds. After it was nerfed to a balanced state it just didn't feel good anymore. It should last longer for Sivir and do something offensive so that it feels like a good ult to use. Locking W on during it would bring back the old Sivir feel in teamfights for the duration of the ult, which would make Sivir players really happy.

Kristophoros i have been on the forums for a long time and i have always respected your posts as they always carry alot of reasoning and good explanations behind them.

Do you feel that she needs a range buff and if not explain why. I was around for Sivir's Original incarnation with boomerangs everywhere and i knew why they nerfed it because it gave too much AOE and too much power to her team. But now that all of that has been taken away and with the onset of carry's such as Caitlyn whose range far exceeds Sivir's and who can also play safer and champions such as Jarvan and Zed who can get directly to the back line i don't see a reason that she shouldn't have a range increase to at least put her on par with these other champions.


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DinoRarr

Member

10-12-2013

itt: is this champion properly balanced? probably not, but we're okay with subpar results over here @ riot games.


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aperson1

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, again (and this is my point from the original point) is you're concerned Sivir's not good enough, not that she doesn't have good skills?
morello i think u should hold a discussion on the forums about balance vs. feel. a lot of people don't seem to get the difference between reworks and flat nerfs. you see this a lot with threads like "discuss nidalee spears" -> "i hate nidalee spears" -> "stfu ur gonna get her nerfed into the ground"


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Transairion

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, again (and this is my point from the original point) is you're concerned Sivir's not good enough, not that she doesn't have good skills?
Old Sivir (the "pre-rework" Sivir that was active when I joined) who had Ricoshet as a toggle was good enough, simply because for all her faults she had a niche as a pusher. It didn't matter if the other ADC wrecked Sivir due to her slow movespeed, low stats and everything else, because she could harass and push incredibly hard. Ignoring a pushing Sivir could cost the enemy team every single turret in a lane (I did this once, was amazing!).


Current Sivir/PBE 'buffed' Sivir doesn't have that niche anymore (but she still has all her problems) so she's just a substandard Marksmen with all her skills feeling highly situational and the current W just being, well, weak.

Again, her Q flies slow enough to be dodged by anyone with awareness (even super slow champions like Cait) reducing it's damage to zilch, and apart from that she's out of damaging abilties. Hitting someone with W now requires getting into Sivir's auto range and since everyone else has higher range they just autoattack you as you move closer/move back afterwards, resulting in losing half your health since she's so squishy. Hitting with a rebounded W does pratically non-existant damage but unlike Old Sivir's you can't do that 10 times in a row, you do it once then wait for cooldown and try again. Very unsatisfying.

E and R again are just temporary situational defences/buffs that easily be rendered useless (Spellshield at the wrong time and they won't use an ability/a single slow from any champ renders her Ult void and Sivir dead).


Without having the Pusher Niche to compensate Sivir's just an incredibly squishy, slow, poor range Marksmen with easily countered abilities. I have yet to see anyone actually be happy when I select Sivir in champ select, even in Normals, because they know as well as I do I'm probably going to get obliterated by the other Marksmen who can do anything I want to, but better.

A non-pusher niche Sivir isn't really Sivir at all in my eyes.