There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Stez007

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then that reward should be upped through numbers tweaks, if that's true.

That's my point; the balance will need tuning, but now she can be balanced. That's really the goal with reworks where power is concerned.
You said this last time. It didn't happen. All the tuning in the world won't make up for her range issues. Doesn't matter how powerful her kit might be in ideal circumstances 'cause in lane she'll be out-poked and out-harassed all day and in teamfights she'll be murdered by any and all gapclosing champions.

Again, you said the same things when the last rework hit and here we are on round two doing the same song and dance. Just stop it already because we know how this ends: a year from now you're reworking her again, giving us the same reasons again and failing to make her viable again.


Edit: Also said the same thing about the Katarina rework. "She can be balanced." Still waiting on that miraculous tuning that was supposed to balance her.


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Tsukinoki

Senior Member

10-12-2013

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Originally Posted by Cpt Thayon View Post
Urgot is an entirely other beast to take on.
A sexy beast.


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
% missing HP scales naturally with the game (as people get HP/level) and itemization.
So you basically made it a malz pool? To increase her dmg and teamfighting? But what about her farming? Team fighting means nothing if you can't farm...the reason morg was decent was because even if you were zoned to turret, you could atleast use your pool to get some minions...you can't even do that now b/c of the pool changes...and how bad her AA is and how small her range is ;s


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Khristophoros

The Council

10-12-2013

Morello I posted this a minute ago but I think you missed it.

Suggestion: Sivir's R should activate W for the duration and last longer for Sivir but not her allies.

Reasioning is it would actually give the Sivir player a real high point and bring back the feel of old Sivir in teamfights without making her team go nuts, but still give them a meaningful speed up that can help engage or disengage when timed right.

My biggest concern with her is the new R doesn't give you a really big high point that an ult should.


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Dark Binding

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phlogosis View Post
Because she's got Xerath range abilities and Darius level complexity. Before you guys are all, wut mrg is so complx, you gotta know like, where AND when to put w and gotta manage mana and stuff; so does Darius. She's a liiiiittle face-rolly, face it. Bind somebody, soil their feet, try to ult > 1 person, Zhonya's during ult, be tanky. She's not hard, so she can't have amazing mechanical strengths, man. MR reduction is a hidden strength.
Am I wrong in asking for a normal attack range so I can actually farm up to fulfill my job as an initiator for my team? Because as it stands, I won't be able to farm properly until level 7 or 9, depending on how much ap I have.


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HandheldBrandon

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.

Wall of text incoming and i will try and be as informative and level headed in my wording and choice of words for this feedback.

Also thank you very much for taking the time to post.


I can understand not wanting to homogenize but i am going to ask what exactly are you homogenizing?

Sivir has long been a carry with great AOE potential but struggles through the laning phase to make that potential. With her current passive she can chase and kite with the best of them and with Ricochet her pushing potential was unmatched. However it has been a long time since the days when Sivir's old ricochet was overpowered and alot has changed. We now have Marksmen who are able to better protect themselves and champions who are designed to get past that protection if the marksmen plays unwisely. Because of this we have a ton of champions designed to get past a team straight to the back line (think Zed and fizz). These champions get behind the peel and tear apart the marksmen.

Someone like cait doesnt have too worry too much about this because of her safety through range.

Ezreal, Corki, Vayne all have ways of getting out of that situation through condemn, blink, or valkyrie.

ALl of them also have respectively over 500 range.

Now lets take a look at Sivir.

Her self peel is a spell shield which does nothing if fizz and Zed get to her because they are still within range of her with all of their abilities. I do not mind Sivir not having a dash or a blink but to call her ultimate a form of mobility is a bit upsetting as a team can buy a shurelias and have the same thing. So what happens now that Sivir's Ult is a glorified item? It weakens her overall.

I am going to list her weaknesses and then her strengths.

Strengths
Huge burst with Q
Great waveclear
If left alone will put out huge AOE damage to a team
Can chase and kite with the best of them if left alone
Spellshield (fantastic spell)
Team Oriented Ultimate

Weaknesses
Shortest Marksmen range
Very mana hungry despite 2 no cost spells
Most of her burst comes from a skillshot nuke that loses damage if it hits more than 1 thing
If anyone so much as sneezes at her she will blow up her base stats are that low
Low range makes for a difficult kite since most slows/ gap closers out range her by far
No way for her to get away if above scenario happens outside of blowing said team oriented ult and or summoners.


Look at the common picks my good man what do you notice?

Everyone of them is safe from ezreal to cait.
Do i want that?
NO
i do not.

But i do want to be able to compete with them in the laning phase and having a long ranged Q and a passive that only works on champions doesn't do any thing for me when i am being poked from out of range underneath my own tower.

Her claimed Niches it that she now has old ricochet in a sense and her pushing and harass is now of high levels. That is not the case as to get that pushing and harass she has to blow mana and get in range of minions to use her W but since her range is so low she will be poked out before she ever gets to a minion.

She has short range, no mobility, skillshot reliant burst, steroid is tied to ult, attack speed has been gutted to utter rubbish, her really redeeming feature her attack speed ult was turned into a glorified shurelias.

I mirror what everyone else here says and have to ask what was the goal? You took her already narrow role and made it narrower. Was it your goal to make her laning phase weak to force her into farming until she catches up because if this goes live like this she will probably not be played and if she is she will spend the majority of her time catching up in farm because of how behind she got in lane.


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Vertexon

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.
I think my main concern revolves around how ADCs are played in the current meta.

This is something that Guardsman Bob preaches religiously on his stream: as an ADC, your job is to do the following things in order of priority during teamfights: (1) Don't die, (2) Try to position yourself so that exactly one enemy is in autoattack range at any time, (3) Keep autoattacking until it dies, then move into range of the next enemy.

The problem with old/new Sivir is that she is extraordinarily difficult to position correctly without putting yourself into kill range of multiple enemies (if not the entire enemy team) during teamfights. Spell Shield and MS boost isn't enough self-peel to overcome this. Probably works out fine in some metas, but not in the one we're currently using on Summoner's Rift.


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SlVIR

Senior Member

10-12-2013

accept me friend request morello.

I will show you the secrets of sivir.

W needs base damage

AS needs to be rebuffed

You got one dam good AD morello

Trust in me.


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Vsin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
Suggestion: Sivir's R should activate W for the duration and last longer for Sivir but not her allies.
Oi, that's just a demented Spray and Pray then, only with an AS steroid instead of an AD one.


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Zyrä

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
Oi, that's just a demented Spray and Pray then, only with an AS steroid instead of an AD one.
how is that a bad thing? it might actually at least band-aid patch her pitiful range.