There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Afflictid

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
Vayne's range should be 525.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

10-12-2013

I think what morello is saying is that sivir's power level is already in line with other ranged carries, even if it isn't apparent. Just because she's not able to duel vayne or draven doesn't mean she is low in power.

Just because she isn't able to out poke ezreal or corki doesn't mean she's low in power.

Just because she can't provide as much team utility as ashe or varus doesn't mean she's low in power.

Just because she can't provide as much area of effect damage in team fights as twitch or miss fortune doesn't mean she's low in power.


She's supposed to be a zoning champion. Someone who can control an area. Right now she's a little on the weak side, but adding range won't fix it. She needs a few tweaks to her ricochet and minor base stat adjustments. But ultimately, she won't be a duelist, area of effect bombardier, support/adc hybrid or anything of that sort. She's got her own seperate umbrella of strengths.

TLDR

Stop trying to impose your idea of what sivir should be onto what sivir actually is.


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Mistiya

Member

10-12-2013

Morello: When a champion is so niche you have to plan an entire team around her, then she is not safe to ever pick in SoloQueue and we would like to be able to play her without having a 5 man premade.

Not to mention... well I'm not seeing what niche she should fit into? Nidalee is a character I'd call niche, Poke comps require a little bit of people being on the same page. But what niche is Sivir for?


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HaveFunTrying

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
I just want Sivir to be stronger, generally. I mean, at the moment, her Ultimate's Passive gives the impression it gives Sivir a good AA damage output, but it's not reliable and doesn't makes up for her 500 range. After 3 AAs, she'd go back to having her normal Attack Speed while waiting for 6 more seconds for her W to be back. On the other hand, we have Jinx, whose Attack Speed boost on Q seems more rewarding for her 525 range.

I understand Sivir's Q is great for harrasing and with her 500 range, it's easy to double hit her target, but her Q is dodge-able, and doesn't makes up for her 500 range either. I just don't see the reward of standing so close to her opponent as I do with Jinx or Vayne.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
19 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
What is Jinx's unique strength? She's basically Twitch with a couple side grades. Or Kogmaw with a couple direct upgrades.

You guys see "OMGSOUNIQUE" when it's a ranged champion, but when it's a melee champion it's always neverending "oh no they're just cancer for the game."
Have you joined a political party yet? You should - you'd be great at pushing a really passionate agenda repeatedly!


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Rockman

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Have you joined a political party yet? You should - you'd be great at pushing a really passionate agenda repeatedly!
Don't feed him Morello. It's hashinshin. We try to ignore him ever since he got fired (jk we ignored him before as well)


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Smoge

Junior Member

10-12-2013

What's Sivir's bonus for having low range? If you refuse to allow her a longer range, shouldn't she have some sort of perk for having a harder time laning and in teamfights? Urgot has a low autoattack range, so he gets his long-range EQ combo. What distinguishes Sivir from other marksmen, other than a handicap?


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SlVIR

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Have you joined a political party yet? You should - you'd be great at pushing a really passionate agenda repeatedly!
add me morello duo que some games with me so i can show you some concerns.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
20 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveFunTrying View Post
I just want Sivir to be stronger, generally. I mean, at the moment, her Ultimate's Passive gives the impression it gives Sivir a good AA damage output, but it's not reliable and doesn't makes up for her 500 range. After 3 AAs, she'd go back to having her normal Attack Speed while waiting for 6 more seconds for her W to be back. On the other hand, we have Jinx, whose Attack Speed boost on Q seems more rewarding for her 525 range.

I understand Sivir's Q is great for harrasing and with her 500 range, it's easy to double hit her target, but her Q is dodge-able, and doesn't makes up for her 500 range either. I just don't see the reward of standing so close to her opponent as I do with Jinx or Vayne.
Then that reward should be upped through numbers tweaks, if that's true.

That's my point; the balance will need tuning, but now she can be balanced. That's really the goal with reworks where power is concerned.


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Rockm Sockm

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
Is this unique space in a basement collecting dust?

The range is still too low for someone with horrible mobility.
Poor trading increase by a really bad W and underwhelimg Q.
Trading made worst by AA animation length.

I simply don't believe 500-525 or 550 range is that budget consuming. You claim you would have to nerf skills that are already underwhelming.

People do not want homogenized power, they want other options than the same adcs over and over. I can respect kogmaw because he works with the right team. He still is vastly underplayed and never sees the light of day.

I can't see Sivir working with another team half as good as another adc.