There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Vsin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Everything can be explained with my new hit single titled: Aggressive ADC power creep.
Not really, hash. It has way more to do with the mechanics that Riot deems powerful and/or weak, as well as the counters that they deem to be powerful and/or weak.

In Riot Theory, Jinx's obscenely high early game AS at 525 range (longer than Sivir...) that will take your Turret if you blink is offset by the fact that she can't do squat if Kassadin jumps on top of her.

That same theory says that The Culling must be no stronger than his basic attack, despite the difficulty of actually landing the shots, because his attack range gets dramatically increased.

Similarly, the idea that the reworked Ricochet has the theoretical potential to be global (unlimited bounce targets) means that Sivir's basic attack range must be piss poor in order to compensate, and her Base AS must be painfully bad to make the ability take even longer to come off cooldown.


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Auryiel

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Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
The thing is, you explain your changes, yes, your posts are informative, BUT pretty much everyone feels Sivir is wildly undertuned right now.

Considering you have a pretty nasty habit of letting underpoweres champs sit there untouched for forever, you cannot expect people to be satisfied with Sivir being weak once she comes out of PBE...


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Xenotime Gaze

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Personally, as a Sivir player, while I like the direction she's going, I think she feels weaker than on live. I am of the opinion that having no cc, the lowest range in the game, few escapes, and little to no utility (the AoE AS is now gone, reducing that) should be grounds for upping the damage she deals. I want Sivir to be a high risk, high reward champion, because honestly being at that range has always been a risk, but especially now with all the assassins and such out there. And while I like Jinx a bunch, I find it frustrating that a high risk, high reward marksman with utility doesn't really sacrifice much damage or pushing power for the aforementioned utility, while Sivir with a lot more risk in her kit and a lot less flexibility feels less deadly and has less damage.


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Rivini

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That version was untunable, because mana is not a good enough gate in both early and late game. X shots is, and allows us to give her an AA reset that can improve overall damage in all situations.
Considering Sivir was far from being mana efficient, it was. You had the choice to spam Ricochets or conserve her mana for her other abilities. Chalice and Tear/Manamune were options to help with mana, but you couldn't buy those without being considered a troll.

I thought that made it balanced with the trade-offs being short range (the "cast range"), no CC, no secondary effect added, hits each target only once, and damage fall-off.

To me, as it currently is on live, it's the least satisfying bounce ability in LoL (I have yet to try the new iteration on PBE). Literally every other bounce ability does more than just deal flat damage.

I'm fairly certain the change to Ricochet long ago was why Sivir quickly dropped out of popularity, despite that in the same patch, her AA range was increased and her Q was changed to physical damage. Balanced or not, Ricochet as a toggle was the funnest aspect of Sivir, so when that was taken away, it naturally made playing her less appealing. I can see how the new version is going to be a blend of the two versions, so maybe it'll help bring back that fun factor long-time players like myself have been missing.

Some food for thought from my perspective.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
What is Jinx's unique strength? She's basically Twitch with a couple side grades. Or Kogmaw with a couple direct upgrades.

You guys see "OMGSOUNIQUE" when it's a ranged champion, but when it's a melee champion it's always neverending "oh no they're just cancer for the game."


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Detris White

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Senior Member

10-12-2013

I do fine with her. I didn't like the reduced range at first but it kinda grew on me. Plus its a good trade off for the immense power of her Q


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Rockman

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
Oh I would love if you pushed people into more niche picks. I dislike it when you can pick a champion in almost any situation and expect to do well. Picks should have some thought when you choose them. coughcaitlyncough


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
18 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
Yeah I don't know what's Riot is trying to do with the changes. I thought Morgana was fine, but apparently they want to push her more into support or something. :/
Make it so Q -> W will actually do good damage to champions, and make Morgana lanes (as a Morgana player myself) not auto-farm.


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Khristophoros

The Council

10-12-2013

Tried her on PBE.

I think her overall damage output is way undertuned. Low base attack speed, low growth, just because she has a 3 hit steroid? Trist has huge growth in addition to a massive steroid. You have more power budget to work with on Sivir easily.

I don't think there are any high points besides landing good Qs. Her ult is not a high point because all it does is movement speed. I did read your reasoning for that but I don't like it. It's like saying Malphite's ult should only be the dash and then his CC should be on the rest of his kit. I think a well designed champ will give the player some tough choices in exchange for huge high points.

Old Sivir had amazing high points because you'd ult and go nuts and throw overwhelming AoE damage out. The problem was the rest of your team also went nuts so it auto-won teamfights until it was heavily nerfed.

I have one suggestion:

Her ult should activate W for the whole duration, and it should last a lot longer for Sivir herself. Say like 12-15 seconds.

Reasoning is, Sivir's ult was broken when it was strong enough to give the Sivir player a high point because it was making her whole team go nuts for 15 seconds. After it was nerfed to a balanced state it just didn't feel good anymore. It should last longer for Sivir and do something offensive so that it feels like a good ult to use. Locking W on during it would bring back the old Sivir feel in teamfights for the duration of the ult, which would make Sivir players really happy.


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Phlogosis

Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by leetS diuqiL View Post
What power does Morgana have that's preventing her from having a 550 attack range like other mages? I don't see why she deserves 425, especially considering she's near trash-tier in this mobility driven meta
Rediculous amounts of sustain and extremely safe pushing, along with a game changing ultimate, one of the longest immobilizers, and complete CC immunity against targets that deal little or no magic damage. In other words, one of the best laning phases that transitions into one of the best late games. Stop fighting your lane opponent, buy Boots of Mobility, Chalice, and Spectral Wraiths, and then gank top and bot lane constantly while simultaneously keeping up in farm in mid and stopping your enemy laner from roaming. Take teleport.

TL;DR: Win OTHER lanes, win game.