There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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M0MENTUM

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Morello, I just wanted to voice some of my concerns as someone who used Sivir to get from gold to diamond this season.

1. Removing her self AS from the ultimate and making it into 3 autos worth of AS is going to hurt her abilities to take down any form of tank line. Other ADCs have either high steroids to deal massive DPS or high range to stay safe, Sivir currently fits the first set with a sustained AS steroid, but only 3 autos worth of AS will destroy that ability.

2. Removing the AS aura didn't just hurt the extremely niche use in terms of team comps like bruiser synergy, but also hurt the far less niche use of it where minions can help you take down turrets even faster. A big part of Sivir's identity is that large minion waves become twice as vicious with Sivir on board.

I absolutely love the ricochet change, but I think that the ultimate change destroys Sivir's identity as a tower eating monster.


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Rockman

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderworldH4des View Post
That won't be a problem if those morg changes go through, after the changes she won't be able to farm at all with her pool, even at rank 3 she won't be able to get the caster minions.
Yeah I don't know what's Riot is trying to do with the changes. I thought Morgana was fine, but apparently they want to push her more into support or something. :/


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WTH IS A CHAMP

Senior Member

10-12-2013

There is no reason her range should be that short. Back when she had that insane W, but not anymore. Most(if not all)marksmen can easily do her job but better.


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Phlogosis

Member

10-12-2013

I like the part where people want Morello to do things for them but also don't want to at least try to make Morello to be happy at the same time.

Morello-san, I think that there should be a passive effect on Sivir's kit that solidly shoves her out of "I'm a marksman hurr durr LW+IE right click things" and into a "Team fights are lame, let's kill towers" / "Getting focused is lame, let's ignore abilities" / "Focusing a target is lame, let's kill all the people" kind of a role. What's good about Sivir is that she's not anybody else. Like, something that is good is that her passive triggers on ability hit instead of just auto attacks. The comment about Sivir's rewards made me think of something like,

Quote:
Blocking spells with Spell Shield permanently grants maximum mana.
Yay, I can do more of the things now, I can be Sivir longer!

Or even like, (This might be heavy on the CPU, but it's something)

Quote:
While On The Hunt is active, Ricochet splits on bounce, hitting additional targets (but not gaining additional bounces) when it hits a champion. Those additional bounces immediately stop bouncing if they hit another champion. Each split bounce, just like Ricochet, can only hit a target once.
If 5 champions stand in a line, each champion on the ends would get hit twice, and the three center ones will get hit 3 times. It rewards what is the inherent danger of Sivir, by making her damage way higher. Sort of in a Quinn type of way.

Yay, I can kill the people better! It doesn't matter that I'm like inside the enemy team, cause I blow them up!

Just thoughts. I hope you have a nice day, sir. Good luck, and I get sad looking at how these people treat you. Sucks to be you, man.


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lvl 8 Psyduck View Post
you said marksmen lol
Because that's like their "official" title now.


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Livingsword

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Her ult's a gap-closer - a pretty good one at that!

Are you really worried about the lane matchups, or teamfighting? It seems people are really focused on laning to me on this.
Yes it's a gap closer, it was always that but before it was also a great team buffs giving AS to either burn a turret and run for the hills or if 1 or more ADC were in your team turn a team fight around.

I played her in Beta where she could literally melt a whole team with ricochet and a few choice items, I don't think anyone wants that back.

If the ricochet is the reason her range is so short, why not make her ricochet prioritize champions? At 3 bounces it means the enemy champ would have to stay behind the casters creeps to avoid the bounces meaning around the range other marksmen have over Sivir to begin with.

1 thing is for sure she needs something more then just MS on her ult's active and ricochet needs to be a bigger threat if it's going to be of any use.


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Dark Binding

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.
What power does Morgana have that's preventing her from having a 550 attack range like other mages? I don't see why she deserves 425, especially considering she's near trash-tier in this mobility driven meta


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Stez007

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want us to go homogenize Sivir? Whenever we do that, it seems a lot of people don't like that either.

If you want to talk about more ways you can get raw power, you're going to fall on deaf ears with me.
I'm done talking about it. I made the case for giving her range the last time you reworked her and it fell on deaf ears. I have no delusions that you'll actually listen this time, but at least have the courtesy to give us a different excuse. No, you aren't giving Sivir power elsewhere. No, you aren't making her kit stronger. No, you aren't putting her into a niche-but-viable role. You're doing absolutely nothing to her power-wise and you will not--I'll stress this point, you will not--be able to tune this kit any more than you were able to tune the last one.

Redo her entirely if you have to, but don't give us the same bull twice. Seriously, this is the exact same nonsense you used to justify the last rework and it isn't appreciated. At least come up with some other reasoning or just tell us you don't want her to be viable.


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SlVIR

Senior Member

10-12-2013

morello listen to me

#1 played sivir except for in korea

She needs her base damage back on her W her crits are reduced by 250+ damage

She needs to not have .62 base attack speed with masteries.


Dont buff her Range. You dont need too. Add me and spectate some of my games. I'm playing ALL NIGHT.


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DarkerNectron

Senior Member

10-12-2013

There were 3 main issues I felt when trying her out on the PBE (granted this is from one test)

1) Her W feels bleh. It may be quite strong in the right situation, but it feels like a huricane (that is to say, not good on an ADC since you'll almost always be face to face with a tank). The auto attack reset is nice, and feels good, but once its active, its just... active. And 3 targets? I guess...

2) Her E doesn't feel rewarding. (This is the way its always been. I kinda would've liked a minor movement speed bonus attached with the successful block of an ability, but her kit is a little loaded with MS modifiers). The new animation looks pretty nice. *Out of curiosity* Would it be possible for Sivir's E to 'take' part of the damage from the ability blocked, and add it to her next auto attack? This could turn her into more of a duelist which might justify the 500 range on her auto attacks. (actually on second though, if Fiora ever needs buffs... tag that onto her parry).

3) Her R is just a Shurelias. This feels ALOT like Karma. Also, buffing your allies/minions attack speed was a large amount of what made her ultimate feel like an ultimate.

And 4*) Her boomerang sound is global to all players (I'm not sure if this has been fixed since this morning)