There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
Morgana has low range because they want her to farm with pool and have a risk if she has to basic attack.

At least that's what I thought before they changed it....
That won't be a problem if those morg changes go through, after the changes she won't be able to farm at all with her pool, even at rank 3 she won't be able to get the caster minions.


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Mistiya

Member

10-12-2013

One thing I'd like to point out is that Sivir's Attack Speed Ult made her poor range feel less, well, terrible because it felt like you were supposed to be in the fight with your team. A speed-boost ult doesn't feel that way.

You already gave a champion a Speed Boost Ultimate. Karma, remember her? And one thing I've learned from playing a lot of Karma is that speed boost is much more commonly used to disengage than to engage. It's not for hunting down your enemies, it's for escaping them. She's going to use it like Quinn does, to run between lanes or objectives, which is... okay I guess?

It doesn't feel like Sivir. That's my main criticism of it. Sivir wants to be in there, fighting, not running away like a coward.

The range thing is still ridiculous, at least give her 525. We're not asking for Caitlyn level ranged, just to not be the absolute lowest ranged Marksman for no discernible reason except a Legacy Value. Tied for lowest would be okay.


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Kappadin

Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
Morgana has low range because they want her to farm with pool and have a risk if she has to basic attack.

At least that's what I thought before they changed it....
Hopefully they'll buff her attack range and attack speed considering they totally gutted her soil for farming (you'll need rank 4 for caster minions and rank 5 for melee minions now.)


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Rockm Sockm

Senior Member

10-12-2013

She needs 550 at the minimum and preferably 600 attack range.

I also think Graves range is too low as well but at least he has his W and E.

A ranged character should be ranged, not practically melee.

Keep in mind I rarely play ADC and prefer bruisers. Sivir and Jinx seem like free van candy but atleast Jinx can farm a safe distance.


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Nosef

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Great post, Morello, but I still vote for giving her an extra 25 range. Kog'Maw also has an ability that lets him extend and harass with AAs beyond his standard range, which is more than 500, and can do so without having to bounce it off a minion...

inb4 different skills blah blah blah, you know what I mean.


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HaveFunTrying

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
There's a lot of moving pieces on the Sivir rework, for sure. Let's talk about a couple of points (this is a well-reasoned, if long, post so I want to highlight it as a good way to have a discussion).

For reference, our rationale for the current changes are well-explained in Statikk's post from yesterday: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...48905#42148905

I do want to address the "the only way to fix her is to make her have equivalent attack range". My core stance is that Sivir now has a number of levers we can use to tune her correctly. I'm actually not terribly interested in what the current tuning is because that can be fixed quickly as long as the core gameplay is good, but we'll talk about where that's true and not on the new kit.

1) Sivir's short range is largely a cost she pays to allow ricochet to be more aggressively tuned. This wasn't the case before the VU because of ricochet being more basic and not adding a ton of pressure on its own, but the new ricochet allows for higher-pressure haraass while wave-clearing to create a more claustrophobic lane for enemies. Original Sivir had a long range and an uncapped ricochet, which basically prevented her from exposing herself to opponents at all. It was like a super-Caitlyn!

The new W looks to go back closer to that paradigm. While not uncapped still, ricochet is core to Sivir's power and should be tuned as aggressively as we can manage - it is, afterall, the most defining, non-power feature of the character. The nice part of the new one is that its built as a variable number of shots.

For example, let's say 3's too low. Sivir is likely insane if we made that number "your next 300 shots." There's a number between 3 and 300 that makes this skill satisfying and balanced, and we'll be looking for that number (along with other tweaks that make Ricochet do its job better). It has a cooldown window and resets attacks, providing at least basic decision-making and counterplay to use.

2) Sivir's core strategic strengths are pretty unique; marksman-level AOE damage, high mid-game burst thanks to Q double-hitting, and a team-based engage/disengage skill. That means we should (and are) going to embrace those unique factors, while providing costs in other things other people do well. This likely places Sivir in a place that's more niche than a Vayne, but that's part of what having a a character stand out and be something that feels different is about. Balancing Sivir through homogenization is very possible, but not the direction we generally want to go wherever we can avoid it. If she's not doing these things, then she has the hooks to tune them.

3) Sivir might be bad in some metas, and good in others. This is not only fine, but preferable. This goes a lot in-line with my above point, but this is more similar to Kog'Maw - other game states and comp choices will change the viability of that champion, especially as we're thinking Sivir's likely harder to play than some other characters.

So is Sivir perfectly balanced? Probably not - but that's not the meaningful issue, especially as a character like her who has needed some work to be usable for quite awhile. Now, however, we have tuning points available to us to make sure we get her in the right spot, for the right reasons, all while making sure she has a space that's all-her-own within LoL.
Just wanted to say... Thank you for taking your time to answer our concerns, Morello! I'll now be reading all your posts and hope to be convinced she's fine at 500 range.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Everything can be explained with my new hit single titled: Aggressive ADC power creep.


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Transairion

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That version was untunable, because mana is not a good enough gate in both early and late game. X shots is, and allows us to give her an AA reset that can improve overall damage in all situations.
Honestly the move from toggle to X shots/current version was way more of a nerf than anything, Ricoshet being Sivir's only good skill if I'm honest.

Her Q is so easily dodged it gives Xerath a run for his money and the only way you'll be able to win all you engagements with it are if they stand still/you can predict which direction they'll accurately every single time.

Her W was basically the entire reason to play Sivir: long range reliable harass that punished your opponents for trying to get creeps. And when laning was over it was the best pushing ability in the game, bar none. Then it was changed to an autoattack reset with a huge cooldown and became, honestly, worthless. Pushing power was gutted into the ground.

Her E is little more than a free ability block if you time it right (and if the opponent falls for it), or a complete mana drain if they don't. Powerful as it may seem most of the time you'll take all your damage from being autoattacked to death anyway.

Her R is a speed boost for your whole team. That's good, right? Since Sivir's movespeed is so slow (Passive only works when chasing, not fleeing), it hardly works as an escape either.



Playing Sivir at all is shooting yourself in the foot since her movespeed is abysmal, her base stats are Heimerdinger level and her range is so slow... she only has two damaging abilities and the best one of them


TLDR: Sivir's whole identity/purpose was to push brutally hard because she can't ADC properly like everyone else. Any other ADC could do anything other than pushing better. You gutted her W and gutted her pushing as a result, so now she's just kind of useless unless really, really far ahead. Which you'd still be if you played a better champ instead.

A shame too, Sivir was my go-to ADC because I enjoyed pushing so much. Now I just get oneshot by every other superior ADC no matter what I do.


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Lvl 8 Psyduck

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Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
There's a lot of moving pieces on the Sivir rework, for sure. Let's talk about a couple of points (this is a well-reasoned, if long, post so I want to highlight it as a good way to have a discussion).

For reference, our rationale for the current changes are well-explained in Statikk's post from yesterday: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...48905#42148905

I do want to address the "the only way to fix her is to make her have equivalent attack range". My core stance is that Sivir now has a number of levers we can use to tune her correctly. I'm actually not terribly interested in what the current tuning is because that can be fixed quickly as long as the core gameplay is good, but we'll talk about where that's true and not on the new kit.

1) Sivir's short range is largely a cost she pays to allow ricochet to be more aggressively tuned. This wasn't the case before the VU because of ricochet being more basic and not adding a ton of pressure on its own, but the new ricochet allows for higher-pressure haraass while wave-clearing to create a more claustrophobic lane for enemies. Original Sivir had a long range and an uncapped ricochet, which basically prevented her from exposing herself to opponents at all. It was like a super-Caitlyn!

The new W looks to go back closer to that paradigm. While not uncapped still, ricochet is core to Sivir's power and should be tuned as aggressively as we can manage - it is, afterall, the most defining, non-power feature of the character. The nice part of the new one is that its built as a variable number of shots.

For example, let's say 3's too low. Sivir is likely insane if we made that number "your next 300 shots." There's a number between 3 and 300 that makes this skill satisfying and balanced, and we'll be looking for that number (along with other tweaks that make Ricochet do its job better). It has a cooldown window and resets attacks, providing at least basic decision-making and counterplay to use.

2) Sivir's core strategic strengths are pretty unique; marksman-level AOE damage, high mid-game burst thanks to Q double-hitting, and a team-based engage/disengage skill. That means we should (and are) going to embrace those unique factors, while providing costs in other things other people do well. This likely places Sivir in a place that's more niche than a Vayne, but that's part of what having a a character stand out and be something that feels different is about. Balancing Sivir through homogenization is very possible, but not the direction we generally want to go wherever we can avoid it. If she's not doing these things, then she has the hooks to tune them.

3) Sivir might be bad in some metas, and good in others. This is not only fine, but preferable. This goes a lot in-line with my above point, but this is more similar to Kog'Maw - other game states and comp choices will change the viability of that champion, especially as we're thinking Sivir's likely harder to play than some other characters.

So is Sivir perfectly balanced? Probably not - but that's not the meaningful issue, especially as a character like her who has needed some work to be usable for quite awhile. Now, however, we have tuning points available to us to make sure we get her in the right spot, for the right reasons, all while making sure she has a space that's all-her-own within LoL.
you said marksmen lol


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
17 of 33 Riot Posts

OK, forums. Let's talk.

I've seen more weird downvoting of informative posts lately, and in this case the message that sends to me is;

We want homogenized power, stop trying to carve out unique spaces for stuff because it might not be super powerful. "Just make it strong!"

Because if you're telling me "don't do what you just did," that IS what is left over by default. Every single piece of power has a cost, and 50 range is a lot of power budget.

So what is the alternative? We can make Sivir "not quite as good Corki" at 550. Her ricochet would need to be nerfed, her ult less fight-changing, and ultimately, a pretty flat character who would be easy to replace with other marksmen.

I know that cost isn't apparent because power is apparent, and there's a lot of examples of powerful characters that do this. It's like saying a mage is weak if it can't burst.