There is still no reason Sivir should have 500 attack range.

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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
10 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratastok View Post
Riot should listen more to the Sivir players or else she is going to end up as the ranged Olaf,and then they will wonder why she is in such a bad state.
We did listen - we removed the cast time on her ult and allowed her to fill the lanes with bouncing missiles again, commonly-requested Sivir changes.. We just don't do every single suggestions because we've given a laundry list of reasons why we're choosing not to.

Remember we have a whole ecosystem to think about, and what "X champion players want" can be at costs to overall good health. We do what we can, but it's rarely "everything."


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Vsin

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
For example, let's say 3's too low. Sivir is likely insane if we made that number "your next 300 shots." There's a number between 3 and 300 that makes this skill satisfying and balanced, and we'll be looking for that number (along with other tweaks that make Ricochet do its job better). It has a cooldown window and resets attacks, providing at least basic decision-making and counterplay to use.
You're looking at the wrong number - the problem is the cooldown.

10 - 6s is already 3s longer than her live W, and you also need to factor in the fact that you add an extra 1-2s worth of "cooldown" since you need to wait for the third stack to end before it goes back on cooldown. In essence, the cooldown doesn't go from long to short, it goes from absurd to extreme. This is doubly damaging because Ricochet is now her ONLY autoattack steroid.

I appreciate that you guys want to shove her back into the sustained AoE damage slot (as opposed to burst AoE like Miss Fortune/Graves/Varus/Twitch) but the gap you've created between bursts of AoE is so darn large that by the time the ability comes back off cooldown, any potential AoEable targets have already done the Delta Split...rendering her as crappy burst AoE instead of Sustained AoE.

I also contend that her Ult either needs the AS boost back, or the decay needs to be moved to "After 3 seconds, the speed boost decays over 3s" A 60% boost with instant decay is awful, especially considering that Shurelia's Reverie (y'know, the item you guys compared it against) is 40% non-decaying for 3.0s.

Consider: On The Hunt only remains better than Shurelia for 1.5s, then becomes worse for another 1.5s before persisting as 20% for another 3s...or in other words, it's a BAD SHURELIA'S REVERIE because the difference between 60% and 40% is negligible after movespeed diminishing returns, yet the difference between 40% and 20% (the decay point) is significant because that is less likely to incur diminishing returns.


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HigeR

Senior Member

10-12-2013

so when it comes to moving levers on Sivir, you guys are mostly inclined to tweak Ricochet? because I see so much potential on her shield too which was kind of nerfed early game xD though no mana cost made me orga.... ahem.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
11 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzabelle View Post
I just wish there was some more "reward" in Sivir's kit. Like bonuses for hitting a target 2x with her Q. Or some effect for hitting the maximum number of targets with her Ricochet. Just... something rewarding for being able to play her well (even with 500 aa range) with some counter play opportunities. I don't think her kit provides enough of this right now.
This is good feedback - thank you. I'll poke at this a bit.


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
snip
What's the point of you being here for this discussion? I mean it's not like you will take it into consideration and actually change stuff up.....if you did you wouldn't be butchering Zyra mid even though 95% of the people on that discussion thread said it was bad...so yeah, idk why you are going through this trouble of trying to discuss things.


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Morello

Lead Designer

10-12-2013
12 of 33 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigeR View Post
so when it comes to moving levers on Sivir, you guys are mostly inclined to tweak Ricochet? because I see so much potential on her shield too which was kind of nerfed early game xD though no mana cost made me orga.... ahem.
Shield is mostly tun-able through CD - easy to do and valid.


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Dark Wulfy

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Senior Member

10-12-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want us to go homogenize Sivir? Whenever we do that, it seems a lot of people don't like that either.

If you want to talk about more ways you can get raw power, you're going to fall on deaf ears with me.
So, I'm going to point out a few things:
Sivir (yanno, the one you removed from the game) was so much fun to play because of w.

The current incarnation is...terrible. Upon release, she was so strong (verge of OP) because Q was great. The reset on w was okay, but I preferred the unique quality of old w. In fact, building a damage attack speed champion without critical damage to do aoe bounce damage was so fun and unique! The current incarnation once tuned down lost that unqiue aspect and was really lackluster once "balanced."

I am thrilled that the new W is coming back, but how much of this is the focus of her game play? Is e going to remain the same since she gets so close to enemies? Will Q get a reset when coming back in (like draven's ult or Ahri's Q since it does true damage on return)?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Why does Spell Shield grant mana and no something cool like damage reduction (because of her low range) or an offense boost akin to Nocturne? I understand the mana restore helps solidify her status as a Marksmen-pusher, but at the same time I feel like it forces her to have higher mana costs than they could be otherwise. A rework opens up the possibility of a cool new E effect, but instead you decided to play it safe and stick with the old one

Unless the mana restore is the only way you guys can manage the costs of her spells (I doubt that it is), feels like wasted space. If you had more time I assume you could think of something awesome, but I guess there's worth in playing it safe at the same time


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slamor

Senior Member

10-12-2013

It seems to me that jinx's rocket Q is what ricochet needs to be like.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Morello. If Sivir's range isn't going to boosted to normal minimal marksman range and her steroid still relies entirely on her AA reset from Ricochet then why can't you at least give her a way of over-sustaining or itemizing a little better than other marksmans?

I say this with the idea of at least give Sivir the ability to let the ricochet's proc on-hit effects like lifesteal. Maybe not ALL on-hit affects so she doesn't get 5 phage burst but you could at least change it to where she could sustain better in a team-fight for her really bad range and no real gap closer.